People v. finances

by | Oct 8, 2015 | Editor's Blog | 105 comments

John Hood’s most recent column shows the difference between conservative priorities and progressive ones. Hood writes, “Over the past five years, conservative leaders in the General Assembly have enacted a series of tax cuts and tax reforms that will foster entrepreneurship and job creation, reduce the double-taxation of savings and investment, and save taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars a year. North Carolina is one of the few states ever to have junked an outmoded, Keynesian-era tax system in favor of a modern, pro-growth flat tax.”

Hood is talking about what Pat McCrory dubbed “The Carolina Comeback.” So far it hasn’t worked. North Carolina’s recovery has lagged behind other states despite promises, starting in 2011, that tax cuts would make the state an economic powerhouse. Instead, our unemployment is rising instead of falling. The dramatic drop in the unemployment rate last year was due more to kicking people off of the unemployment roles than any dramatic increase in employment.

The tax cuts and “outmoded, Keynesian-era tax system” he describes is a shift of the tax burden onto the backs of middle class families while giving large tax cuts to the rich and corporations. Given their way, Republicans will continue to increase the burden on poor and middle class while cutting taxes for the wealthy.

Hood also says, “On spending, lawmakers and Gov. Pat McCrory have resisted calls by special-interest groups to ‘invest’ more in ineffective state programs and bureaucracies.” What he doesn’t say is that the GOP lumps our public schools and universities into the “ineffective state programs.” The General Assembly has cut funding for the UNC system by more than 20% and per pupil spending in public schools is lower than it’s been in almost a decade. While other states are increasing their budgets post-recession, North Carolina is still at recession levels

Hood’s article outlines the fundamental differences in the way Republicans and Democrats look at government. Republicans focus on savings and reducing the size of government with little regard to the impact on families and people. They applaud cost savings, efficiency, and a reduction of taxes, mainly for the wealthy.

In contrast, Democrats focus on the impact of the budget on families, not just businesses and the wealthiest. They see damage to public schools which are felt in the loss of textbooks for our kids and the loss of teachers to other professions or other states. They’re alarmed at the increase in tuition at state universities and community colleges. They worry about kicking people off of unemployment insurance while the economy is still not creating enough jobs to absorb them.

That’s the nut. When it comes to governing, Republicans care more about finances than people. They believe that if the wealthy are doing well, everybody else will, too. It’s play on the old philosophy, “What’s good for General Motors is good for the country.”

Democrats fundamentally disagree with that sentiment. They believe that a nation’s greatness is judged by how it treats its weakest members. Democrats want to get the tools to succeed to all people and create a strong social safety net that keeps people from falling too hard in bad economic times. They believe that government can be both fiscally and socially responsible and they believe that those who have benefitted most from our system have a responsibility to help those who have not. 

I’m a Democrat.

105 Comments

  1. Progressive Wing

    The DPI data shows the number of teachers to leave NC for teaching jobs in other states was 312 in the last year of Dem NCGA rule (2010-11) but has risen 1,028 in 2014-15.

    I repeat: The DPI data shows the number of teachers to leave NC for teaching jobs in other states was 312 in the last year of Dem NCGA rule (2010-11) but has risen 1,028 in 2014-15.

    Looks like somebody just can’t handle the facts/truth……..

    • Ebrun

      Do you not understand the concept of NET gain and NET loss? The number who left is of little significance until we know how many came from other states to teach here. The data I have seen show significantly more teachers from other states were hired to teach here than teachers who left here to teach in other states. Thus, this would be a NET gain.

      • Progressive Wing

        Do you not understand the reality that the number of NC teachers leaving for teaching jobs in other states has tripled under GOP rule?
        Do you not understand the concept that these teachers are human beings–human beings who have been devalued, frustrated, underpaid and insulted– and not just numbers for you and you kind to play with?
        Do you not understand the investment that we as taxpayers have made in orienting, training, and mentoring these teachers, only to forfeit that investment?

        Don’t bother answering. I know you will never understand.

        • Ebrun

          Here’s a table that shows the actual number of teachers who left and those teachers who came here from other states:

          For the math challenged, the chart shows how many teachers left NC and how many came to NC.

          What you see in the last column is the difference between the two. Every year on that list, North Carolina imported more than we exported. Period.

          Year Left for Diff State Licenses Issued /Out of State Teachers Actual Teacher Gain/Loss
          2014-15 1028 TBD TBD
          2013-14 734 1,985 1,251
          2012-13 455 2,177 1,722
          2011-12 341 1,783 1,442
          2010-11 312 1,375 1,063
          2009-10 352 1,180 828

          Overall, only 2.3 percent of NC public school teachers either quit teaching or left to teach in other states, according latest DPI report. This is near or slightly better than the national average.

          If teaching conditions are so bad here, why are more teachers coming here to teach than those leaving here to teach elsewhere?

  2. Progressive Wing

    Well, in this thread, we all (with the exception of Ebrun) tried to warn that that public education was being driven into the ground by the GOP, and that our best teachers were leaving in larger numbers. But Ebrun kept cheery-picking other numbers, shouting that things are just all hunky-dory with our teaching corps, and that all the concerns about education in NC were just liberal whining. He kept on citing DPI data to paint a rosy picture.

    Well, the DPI recently reported that teacher exodus is at a 5 year high

    Chew on these stories…

    http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/education/article37387488.html

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/logan-smith/north-carolina-teacher-tu_b_8423076.html?utm_hp_ref=education&ir=Education&utm_content=buffer81abd&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

    The following passage is from the latter URL: “According to historical data on teacher turnover in North Carolina, the percentage of teachers who left to teach in other states has more than tripled since 2010……..On top of that, the percentage of educators who quit teaching altogether is almost sixteen times higher than in 2010.”

    Of course, Ebrun will just say that the N&O and Huffington are just biased sources, so I know there’s no chance of winning opening his eyes. But there are those little things known as facts and the truth.

    • Ebrun

      This story only gives one side os the relevant data. No data on the number of teachers from other states who were hired to take teaching positions in NC. In previous years, many more teachers came from other states to teach here than left to teach in other states.

      Relying on this data set is like evaluating a business based solely on its costs while ignoring its income. One sided data does not tell a true story.

      • Progressive Wing

        LOL. As I recall, Ebrun was the one who initially presented/used NCDPI as solid source of info/data. Now DPI’s data “does not tell a true story.”

        And, of course, he wants to downplay the fact that the rate of teachers leaving the profession here was way up in 2014-15, the fastest rate in 5 years, and instead tries to divert our attention to earlier data. So transparent!

        And, gee, don’t you think that the unfair pay raises given to newbie teachers( from wherever) while the more experienced NC educators got little to none had something to do with the 5-year high rate? Huh?

    • Ebrun

      DPI is required by state law to report to the NCGA on teachers leaving for whatever reason. This report does NOT include data on newly hired teachers. However, that data is available from DPI upon request.

      More than half of the teachers reported leaving their teaching jobs left for teaching positions in other NC school districts or to take administrative positions in NC school districts. Some retired, some left the profession. A small percentage left to teach in other states.

      It is not likely that many experienced teachers would leave to teach in other states as they would lost NC retirement credits. But younger teachers could be recruited to teach in other states. Thus, it makes sense to increase the salary scale for younger teachers. Besides, it’s only fair that those who make the least get the bigger raises.

      And the longivity step increases at 5′ 10′ and 15 years etc. were just almost doubled giving experienced teachers an Incentive for longevity.

  3. Apply Liberally

    If you have hung on in following this tedious thread, have you noticed this pattern?

    Ebrun will make a false claim or statement, be corrected by other posters with facts/truisms, will double-down on his position, will then be corrected again with even more and better facts/truisms, and then will finally submit to those challenges not by just admitting his error, but rather by (a) essentially saying “Yes, BUT….” or (b) by grabbing and supporting those posters’ challenges as his/her own ?

  4. Apply Liberally

    Question: What do you call a poster who hurls, at other posters within a single thread, such terms/accusations as:
    – “class warfare sophistry,”
    – “It seems you can lead liberals to some facts, but you can’t make ’em think,”
    – “(that is) really sophomoric and suggests a dearth of rational thinking,”
    – “partisan propaganda,”
    – “left wing conspiracy theory,” and
    – “buying into a political conspiracy,”

    BUT THEN COMPLAINS about “invective that emanates from the left when their liberal orthodoxy is challenged thus making it hard to engage in civil discourse.”??

    Answer: A forum roiler named Ebrun.

    • Ebrun

      I am gad to see you are paying such close attention to my comments on this blog, A.L. Sooner or later some actual facts may become embedded in your stream of consciousness. D.g. has already made some progress by finally acknowledging that NC is importing more licensed teachers FROM other states than it is losing teachers TO other states.

      With regard to invective, I have been referred by liberals commenting here to as an”idiot,” a “pig,” ignorant,” told to “get my head out of my posterior,” “clown,” and that I do “this blog site a disservice” for commenting here. These are personal insults that can be reasonably seen as “invective.”

      My comments about class warfare, partisan propaganda,and conspiracy theories are meant to be critical of ideas, positions and political philosophy. Any objective observer should be able to discern the difference between criticism of political ideology and personal insults.

      • Troy

        Guilty. Yes I used some of those very words to describe your diatribes and the manner in which you drone on ad nauseum. Were they meant to challenge your ideas, pontifications, and adulations for a single sourced political ideal? You bet. Your utter arrogance to dismiss instantly any other reason, explanation, and then trivialize any point other than yours reaks of a single-mindedness and contempt for others that defies logic. And then you have the audacity to plead the position of %

        • Troy

          I don’t know what happened with the above, but here it is in full

          Guilty. Yes I used some of those very words to describe your diatribes and the manner in which you drone on ad nauseum. Were they meant to challenge your ideas, pontifications, and adulations for a single sourced political ideal? You bet. Your utter arrogance to dismiss instantly any other reason, explanation, and then trivialize any point other than yours reaks of a single-mindedness and contempt for others that defies logic. And then you have the audacity to plead the position of ‘victim’.

          They were not used however to describe you. How could I? I don’t know you. Despite your politics, you might be a pretty decent person (I’m using gender neutral terms since you raised a question of gender assumption in a post above). An “…objective observer would be able to discern that.” You’ll have to pardon me for using your words, but they were quite apt in this instance.

          If you want a sincere and civil exchange of ideas, in other words a debate or discussion on the issues, I’m thinking that most here are quite reasonable. But when you verbiage used in the context that you present them with, why should you expect anything less than what you’ve received? Again, an “…objective observer would be able to discern that.”

          But I sense that is all to no avail. Your mind is made up. Your opinions set, your path firm…as you see it. That’s fine too.

          • Ebrun

            I always expect the abusive comments from those who disagree with me. It’s SOP for the radical left. And I am not complaining about it, just pointing out the vitriol.

        • Ebrun

          More personal insults,Troy? I won’t respond in-kind.

          • Troy

            Bless your heart.

            Not an insult, ideological or otherwise, in that entire piece. If you’re talking about my using your “…objective observer…” statement. Nope, I like it! In fact, I’m going to steal it and use it elsewhere.

          • Ebrun

            Your characterization of my “utter arrogance” is not a personal insult? How would you describe it then.

          • TbeT

            Can’t answer for Troy, but I’d describe it as the truth.

          • Ebrun

            Glad to see you’re still reading my comments even if you aren’t replying.

          • Ebrun

            Oh, and BTW, I don’t feel like or pretend to be a victim of liberal vitriol. It’s rather enlightening to see the over-the-top name calling and personal insults my comments elicit from leftists. Their (and your) responses demonstrate the intolerance of the left for those who express opinions that differ from theirs.

            In the final analysis, the personal attacks don’t harm my psyche or reputation, but they do diminish the stature of those who engage in such improbity.

          • Troy

            Actually no, I wouldn’t classify “utter arrogance” as an insult; ideological or otherwise. It’s simply an observation of your personality here on this blog. I fail to see the insult.

          • Ebrun

            Oh, I see. So if i called you a “condescending nerd,” that wouldn’t be a personal insult, just a description of your personality here on this blog? What a lame rationalization!

          • Ebrun

            I didn’t intend to offend you by calling you a liberal. I am sure you are a true believer and proud to be a “progressive.” And it no doubt is good for your psyche to believe your side will soon take control of everything from the Congress to the General Assembly. But you’ll need lots of luck on that.

          • Troy

            My good person, what rationalization occurred? And did you just stoop to “responding in-kind”?

            You see, oh ye of little foresight, you just can’t get through a response, retort, or thinly veiled insult without some sort of inuendo. “Liberal, leftist, intolerance” roll from you fingers like water off a ducks’ back.

            You self deprecate about how pitiful and downtrodden you are to suffer from such vicious and personal attacks here and then claim you are unmoved and indifferent to it. You stereo-type, categorize, and then label anyone and everyone who doesn’t believe as you do. Talk about intolerance. And beneath it all, not so cleverly cloaked, that smug arrogance that only comes with the self serving knowledge that you and only you are correct, have the proper slant on things, and are superior in mind, thought, belief, and conviction.

            I guess you would just prefer we all simply say “Thank You”.

            But if I were you, I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting on that. You might turn blue!

          • Ebrun

            You’re approaching a new low in character assassination. But keep it coming, it reflects more poorly on you than on me. And no, I didn’t respond in kind, but tried to illustrate for you and others the absurdity of your rationale for engaging in personal attacks.

            BTW, I never believed “liberal or “leftist” represented a personal insult. However, intolerance of others’ opinions is quite evident from the comments of several posters on this blog.

          • Progressive Wing

            There are several different ways to insult people, and you, in your special way, have personally insulted every poster on every thread you have been part of. You don’t do it by calling people names. Rather, you do it by showing great disrespect and arrogance in myriad ways within the discourse.

            You divert, deflect, and declaim. You ignore the main thrusts of replies to your comments, and you adorn most ever post with some barb about “leftists.” You refuse to answer questions posed to you, or to stay on topic, or to acknowledge facts or points when they clearly undercut your arguments. When challenged by others, you don’t respond by either ceding or re-addressing their points, but rather you attack a word or two used by posters on the fringes of their replies, or dismiss their cited sources/facts as biased. You flaunt your advanced degree as if it was superior to the diplomas held by others here. And when finally surrounded by such an abundance of facts and truisms offered by others that you simply cannot defend your stance any longer without looking like an idiot, you embrace their arguments/thinking as if they were of your own making, and lecture those posters as if they were your intellectual inferiors. Finally, as the “cherry on top” of all of the indignities you bestow on others, you have the gall to complain about incivilities thrown your way.

            .

          • Ebrun

            Wow, that’s quite an indictment. It’s quite revealing how one lone conservative commenting here amongst a plethora of liberal commentators can elicit such over-the-top reactions. And, BTW, I have not complained about “incivilities thrown” my way. One of my ancillary reasons for commenting here is to demonstrate the intolerance and disrespect liberals have for those who disagree with them.

          • Troy

            Perhaps. But no matter how low that might be, I still haven’t dropped to you and your level yet.

            And no, I didn’t respond in kind, but tried to illustrate for you and others the absurdity of your rationale for engaging in personal attacks.

            Just as I’ve been trying to illustrate to you the arrogance of your statements. The difference here is, you seem to be a majority of one holding the opinion you have.

            And despite what you “believe” the realilty is much different. The words around those terms, my dear person, provide the context of your meaning, whether you believe it or not. I think you know precisely what you’re saying and how you’re saying it, but…it’s a free country. Believe as you choose. To that end, could you please tell Alice and the White Rabbit I said, “hello.”

          • Ebrun

            There’s little doubt I am in the minority on this blog. Apparently, heretofore this was the exclusive province of liberal commentators. It seems to raise considerable ire that a conservative would be so disrespectful as to engage in debate here. But when your idealogical arguments are effectively rebutted, liberals invariably resort to personal insults and character debasement of those who challenge their views.

            So keep at it, my friend. I am lovin’ it!

          • Troy

            Well, I’m sure the world will sleep easier tonight with that revelation.

            However, it is good to have you out of the closet finally with that little confession.

            I figured you’d get around to gloating over your bait and switch prowess sooner or later, Bravo.

          • Ebrun

            It’s bait all right, but there’s no switch to it. And there always seems to be a liberal bent on taking it.

          • Troy

            Wow, something I tenaciously agree with you about! Alas yes, I guess when we see conservative misrepresentation and propaganda feces being spewed and slathered across the landscape, we just can’t remain silent.

          • Ebrun

            Wow, you seem to have lost it on that one. No need to respond further, your words speak volumes.

          • Troy

            Finally…

        • Troy

          Thanks Progressive. A much better summation and more eloquent than mine.

  5. Ebrun

    Once again, you’re deflecting. The issue I raised is that qualified teachers from other states are receiving NC teaching licenses in substantial numbers. You asserted that some may be hired to teach in Charter schools. I replied, essentially, that where this set of teachers are hired is not relevant because this data set applies only to NC licensed teachers.

    I was not sure if Charter schools required a NC teacher license, but if they did, the requirements would be similar to state run schools. You replied that Charter schools do not have to hire a teacher with a NC license. Fair enough, but if any state licensed teacher is hired to teach in a Charter school, and you have suggested that some are, then they have similar qualifications to state-run school teachers.

    Your obsession with Charter schools seems misplaced. Obviously. many parents support Charter schools and are quite satisfied with their educational curriculum. Why do you insist that you and other public school advocates are qualified to tell parents where their kids should go to school. This is an important choice than should be made by parents and not by public education bureaucrats or left wing ideologues.

  6. Troy

    And thus the culmination of this entire debate. ‘Facts’ are presented as ‘truth’. Topics discussed and debated are then compartmentalized and the purveyor of said facts tries to alter the outcome. Facts aren’t always or necessarily representative of the truth; they’re facts. Frankly, it’s just a sophisticated way of lying. They can be used to portray the picture the user intends to portray and while factual, hardly portray the nexus or reality of what is actually going on.

    So to what end will he go to prove himself right and everyone else wrong? You be the judge. He continually stands on ‘facts’. He’s trying to prove his points so it is up to him to present clear and convincing evidence to that end and likewise present the sources which he used to arrive at the conclusions he presents. Rare is the instance in which he presents his sources with his opinionated conclusions.

    I’ve seen sources cited by Ebrun change across this exchange in an effort to corroborate statements when the obvious choice for reference is pretty simple. The State office of Management and Budget insofar as budget, spending, and revenue questions are concerned. But strangely, this source of reference has been oddly avoided for some reason. Do I challenge the veracity of those statements? He’s here to prove to everyone reading this that his party and political philosophy have done what no other person or entity in recent history could achieve. He’s here to prove that we are all collectively stupid since the majority of those that read this are progressive/progressive leaning in societal and political philosophy. He’s here as others have observed, to be a prole of a socio-economic philosophy that batters people and lauds opulence, excess, and rewards individual and corporate greed. It ignores the majority of people of this state and concentrates on the few. And somehow, that’s better.

    I don’t see, agree, or accept it.

    • Apply Liberally

      Amen, Troy, Amen.

  7. Ebrun

    Once again, your trying to deflect factual data by changing the subject.

    The issue here is your claim that public school teachers are leaving NC in droves to teach in other states. DPI data indicate that is a false claim, as more licensed teachers are coming to NC to teach than teachers leaving NC to teach in other states.

    In response to that data, you suggested that many of these teachers coming to NC from other states may well be teaching in Charter schools that have lower hiring requirements.
    But that can not be the case with this data set, because this data only pertains to teachers who are licensed to teach in NC. So if they are hired to teach in a Charter school, they would have the same basic requirement (i.e.,a NC teaching license) as a teacher hired to teach in a state-operated school.

    My post had nothing to do with “teacher effectiveness.” The point raised here is that NC is attracting many more experienced teachers from other states than teachers leaving NC to teach in other states. But you refuse to accept this basic fact as it does not support your biases, which, in this case, are based on false claims.

  8. TbeT

    Confusing thread to follow…..

    There appears to be only two national sources of state teacher pay rankings, and they both show NC salaries to be near the bottom nationally (through 2013).
    A poster rejects these sources as biased.
    But then that same poster says that when the 2014 and 2015 NC pay raises are factored in in forthcoming rankings, NC’s position will jump up in the rankings.

    I can’t follow the thought process here.
    .
    If the data sources are indeed biased, what’s the value/use in waiting for new rankings to reflect NC salary increases?
    If they are not biased, and they truly are the only two sources of such rankings, what else can be believed but that, in fact, NC is near the bottom in teacher salaries?

    Help?

    • Ebrun

      The surveys cited in this thread are the from web site WalletHub, the National Education Association(NEA) and the National Center for Education Statistics. The NEA is one of the two major national teachers’ unions. The WalletHub survey uses data from the NEA.

      The WalletHub survey and the web site in general have been criticized as being politically biased in favor of liberal or Democrat policies and the NEA is a major backer of Democrat political candidates. See http://dailyhaymaker.com/?p=9261. Thus, some conservatives are suspect of the web site’s objectivity.

      The survey from the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) is probably much more objective than the WalletHub survey which includes many subjective criteria in its state rankings. But the latest NCES data on teachers’ salaries that I have seen is for 2012-13.

      Thus, the latest NCAE survey does not reflect the average 7 percent salary increase for teachers passed by the NCGA in 2014, nor does it reflect the recently passed 2015-16 salary increases for NC teachers.

      And if you have been following this thread, the claim that teachers are leaving NC in droves to teach in states with higher salaries is demonstratively false as indicated by statistics for the NC Dept of Public Instruction. From 2010 to 2014, 8500 teachers from other states were licensed to teach in NC and were hired by the public schools. During that same period, 2194 licensed NC teachers left to teach in other states. Thus, NC had a net gain of 6.306 teachers from other states.

      • TbeT

        Seems to me that waving around the numbers of incoming vs. outgoing teachers is rather silly when one really doesn’t know what one is gaining or losing.

        Just as an example, what if a large chunk of the 8500 teachers that came here from other states between 2010-2014 were very junior or even “rookies” (first-year educators) from other states, and, at the same time, what if a large chunk of the 2194 teachers who left were experienced and inservice-trained educators (say having 10-25 years in the classroom)?

        I just think that it’s absurd and worthless to count teachers as one would count beans. And it bothers me that we don’t know –or appreciate– what reservoir of experience the state has lost. To my way of thinking, a teacher of 20 years may be a much more valuable resource than a 1st-year educator.

        One other thought. Do we know how many teachers have left NC over the last 15 months —-which is that period of time when many experienced teachers grew increasingly frustrated about salary increases and were so disrespected by many politicians and their fellow citizens in the media?

        • Ebrun

          Critics of the funding of teacher compensation in NC contend that teachers are leaving here in droves to teach in other states with better salaries and teaching conditions. The point of my post is that the data just don’t support that claim.

          The data show that the teachers coming here are experienced teachers that have been licensed in other states. They are not new hires to teaching. There may be some hired from other states that have never taught, but those would not be included in this data set because the data cited is for teachers already licensed in other states that have received NC teaching licenses through reciprocal agreements.

          I haven’t seen any data for the past 15 months, but I am sure the DPI will have it available at some point. And of course there is no data to show how much teaching experience each individual teacher had that left NC to teach in another state.

          I am not so sure a teacher with 20 or more years of experience is a lot more valuable than a newly hired teacher. The veteran teacher may be near retirement, while a new hire could be teaching here for the next 20 to 25 years. But it wouldn’t make much sense for many veteran teachers to leave here and lose their retirement credits unless other states would give retirement credit to the years they taught here.

          • TbeT

            So, it sounds like there will be much to see and learn once the data for the last couple of years gets updated by NCES, NEA and DPI. New data should render a clearer picture of salary levels, the state’s comparative salary ranking, and the magnitude/trend of any exodus of teachers from NC. And I for one do believe that the NEA data is credible.

            It would be my best guess that the salary improvements offered in the last two years may not move NC substantively up the rankings. So many other states, coming out of the recession with better budgets to work with, have been offering teacher raises that are equivalent or better than NC’s. That’s just a guess, but we shall see.

            Finally, I did indeed say”a teacher of 20 years,” but that was simple offered as an extreme illustration (my bad). I believe that any teacher with 10 or more years under their belt is much more valuable commodity than one in the first few years of their career. And I’m referring to the value/worth to student learning and outcomes. and not in terms of some calculation of years left in an NC teaching career. It’s the students’ education that truly matters, isn’t it?

          • Ebrun

            Yes, for both current and future students.

            The fiscal situation in NC this year is much improved. In fact, it seems to me I read somewhere that NC was one of only a handful of states with a revenue surplus for this FY. It will be interesting to see if other states with less rosy fiscal outlooks were able to raise teacher pay substantially. And it has been suggested by several knowledgable observers that the NCGA will pass a substantial increase in teacher pay next year if revenue collections continue to be positive, as they are forecast to be.

            And one fact the critics of NC education policies seem to ignore is the excellent benefits package teachers and other state employees enjoy. As a former state employee, I know that what while salary levels weren’t on a par with the private sector, the State health, retirement, sick and vacation leave policies were much better that those in the private sector.

            The real losers in the brouhaha over teacher salaries are most other state employees who haven’t seen a substantial pay increase in recent years.

          • TbeT

            Sorry to be so bold, but I am sensing a little naivete in your last reply.

            Yes, there was an announced budget “surplus.” But one can generate (fabricate) a revenue “surplus” figure when, in setting the level of expected (desired?) state revenues under a new tax code, one sets expected revenues inordinately low. After all, the GOP’s aim (some would call it the GOP’s “trickle-down fantasy”) is to lower taxes, have all citizens and free enterprise benefit from that, but, at the same time, not “grow'”government coffers or programs.” I don’t think I have that wrong, or do I?

            And did you really read that just a “handful” of states had surpluses? I have read just the opposite:

            https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/govbeat/wp/2014/07/15/after-years-of-cuts-state-budgets-show-surpluses

            https://www.nasbo.org/sites/default/files/NASBO%20Fall%202013%20Fiscal%20Survey%20of%20States.pdf
            Quote: “General fund spending increases in fiscal 2014 continued to be most
            heavily targeted towards K-12 education and Medicaid, which
            received the majority of additional budget dollars. Forty-two
            states enacted general fund spending increases for K-12 education
            for a net increase of $8.8 billion.”

            Must be the source of stuff we each read.

            As for NC employment benefits, I too was an NC employee, but before that, was a state employee in another state. And I can tell you that all of NC’s fringe benefits paled in comparison to those I received before coming to NC, especially the state health coverage plan. And I feel I must ask: wasn’t it NC Republicans who proposed (or will propose next session) a bill that will deny new state employees health coverage in their retirement?

          • Ebrun

            NC increased education and Medicaid spending in its last two budgets.That tells little about the overall budget/revenue outlook in a state, as states must budget for many other areas–public safety, transportation, etc. The article I read about state budget shortfalls may have been last year. I think it was from the Council of State Governments. I look again for it.

            BTW, Medicaid spending is an entitlement and states are required to fund any cost overruns in the next year’s budget. So they really have little choice but to fund the increase.

            And as for your suggestion that revenue estimates were deliberately “fabricated” to help the GOP save face, there is no evidence of that. The revenue estimates are made by a professional, nonpartisan professional staff in the Fiscal Research Division of the NCGA. The News and Observer would have been all over that story if in fact that were the case. Sounds like another left wing conspiracy theory.

            Last Winter and Spring the liberal press (i.e., News and Observer, Charlotte Observer, etc) were criticizing the GOP tax cuts because of projected revenue shortfalls. Once the revenue surplus became apparent, liberals claimed the GOP raised taxes on the middle class. Pure partisan hogwash.

            Yes, I believe the evidence shows, at least for 2014, that tax cuts can result in increased revenues to the government. Read a memo dated May 10 of this year from the Fiscal Research Division staff to the NCGA. It spells out evidence that the tax cuts resulted in increased revenues to the state from increased business activity and new job creation, You can find the memo at NCGA web site.

            As far as very generous state employee benefits in other states are concerned, that may be why so many states get in to fiscal trouble. NC has always been, even under Democrat control, conservative in fiscal matters. (A balanced budget is required). But I enjoyed free health insurance from the state while I was employed and for several years after I left. I don’t see how any state could be more generous than that.

          • TbeT

            Whoa, fella. You interpreted and reacted to my post in a rather cantankerous and strange way!

            I make the point (and give two citations) that it was not just a “handful” of states like NC (as you implied) that had SURPLUSES, but rather many more state than that. Your reply is about ….. what North Carolina SPENDS? Huh? Where are you going with that?

            Then I explain —in generic, non-accusatory terms— how surplus revenues can be made to happen on a state budget ledger (on any ledger, for that matter) by lowering the level of revenue that you want or expect to generated. Corporations and business keep this in mind all the time in setting out their budgets and balance sheets for a new fiscal year. I certainly did not say, mean, or imply that “revenue estimates were deliberately “fabricated” to help the GOP save face,” And what’s with that uncalled for dig that my thinking is “another left wing conspiracy theory.” And we had been getting along so nicely! Is this how you respond to others offering a different view on this site?

            And please, speaking of Fiscal Research Office of the NCGA” as if it was infallible, or not under the influence of who pays them, or not tasked to work with a revenue vs. expenditure balance sheet constrained by the new tax reform law is unrealistic. I have seen their memo about the surplus, and simply disagree that it was simply the “tax cuts (that) resulted in increased revenues to the state from increased business activity and new job creation.” One could just as easily make the case that it was federal fiscal policy and strong stock market activity that helped lift all states, including NC, in business activity and employment. But for some reason you seem to view the NCGA Fiscal Research Office as the final irrefutable word on NC fiscal matters. It isn’t. Rather, it just one word, among many. And it was that way even under the Dems.

            Further, you speak about the”excellent benefits package teachers and other state employees enjoy” here in NC. I respond by essentially saying it is not better —and is actually worse— than my former state’s. You reply, off point, by saying that may be why such other states get into fiscal trouble?? Wah? What sort of diversionary response it that? Besides, my former state is not, and has never been, in fiscal trouble that wasn’t resolvable in the next budget year (if you will recall, even NC was in “fiscal trouble” in 2009-2010).

            And while you may have received free state health care while you worked and for a few years after you retired, state health care here has not been “free” for MANY years (I had to pay at least $400/month for family coverage while I worked for NC; it’s more than that now).

            Y were the one who raised the health benefits matter in the first place, saying critics “seem to ignore is the excellent benefits package teachers and other state employees enjoy,” and using that to reinforce your stance that being a teacher in NC is very attractive. But it appears you said that without either knowing or revealing what is the truth, i.e., that NC employee health benefits are not at present all that great. And if the NCGOP ends retirement health coverage for employees who are newly hired, as they have seriously discussed, it will be an even worse situation for new teachers to enter into.

            And finally, there’s something which makes me wonder if you are simply unaware or just trying to fool others on this thread. You say of NC, “A balanced budget is required.” FYI, all states are required by law to have balanced budgets and so all states must be fiscally dutiful, to a least that degree. So why do you say that at all? Out of ignorance or to mislead?

          • Ebrun

            I’ve tried to be polite and respectful in response to your posts, but I see you want to be contentious. Ok, I am up for that. BTW, I can’t remember stating my gender on this thread or others, so you are assuming I am a “fella.”

            Just a couple of clarifications. Family health insurance coverage has never been free for NC state employees. But individual employee coverage has been. I am not sure what the current benefit package includes. But I do know that the average annual teacher salary in NC is slightly over $48k and the average benefits package is around $15,500. Health care benefits alone provided by the state are worth (cost) $5,471 per teacher. The state’s contribution to retirement equals 15.32% of salary. This no doubt seems generous to a typical NC citizen and taxpayer employed in the private sector.

            To claim that you didn’t imply that the revenue forecasts were skewed to make the GOP tax cuts look good is totally disingenuous. Go back and read your own comment: “Yes, there was an announced budget “surplus.” But one can generate (fabricate) a revenue “surplus” figure when, in setting the level of expected (desired?) state revenues under a new tax code, one sets expected revenues inordinately low.”

            You even suggested I was naive to believe the revenue estimates from the professional staff were legitimate. And then you go on to imply the the NCGA’s fiscal research staff is influenced by “who pays then.” They are paid by the taxpayers of NC. You might not agree with their analyses, but they are the legal staff to the General Assembly and budgets are developed based on their work. Sorry, but mistrusting the motives and professionalism of the Fiscal Research staff suggests to me that you are buying into a political conspiracy.

            And to suggest that all states are fiscally dutiful is absurd. Take a look at what’s happening in states like Illinois and New Jersey, just to name a couple.

            All of these recent comments and responses do not counter my primary point of this discussion. NC is hiring many more teachers from other states than the state is losing NC teachers to other states. This trend calls into question critics claims that Republican policies are harming education in NC. If the state of public education here is so bad, why are so many teachers, as well as families, businesses and new jobs, coming to NC. The state is experiencing population and economic growth under GOP control, which coincides with cuts in personal and business income taxes.

          • TbeT

            Dear Ms. Ebrun:

            Now I see what the others who have gone around with you on this thread are referring to. Your mind works in strange–even creepy–ways.

            You address points and questions on tangents—if you address them at all. You bend words and meanings of others. Posters have called attention to your use of deflection, repetitiveness, and, at times, non-responsiveness when points that seem to undercut your own position are thrown back at you. You turn mean and blame other for starting the meanness party.

            This will be the last time I reply to you on this thread. It’s a waste of time volleying with you, as you are clearly being disingenuous in your intent. With you, it’s not about enlightening and/or persuading and/or learning. IMO, you are rather all about standing resolute and intransigent in your own mindset—and deliberately playing debate, definitional, language and mind games with others while doing so.

            Here are my final reaction to your postings:

            – NC is still ranked in the lowest 20 of state on teacher pay. When pay raises for 2014 and 2015 are factored in and new rankings are computed, I’ll wager that NC will remain in the bottom 20% of the state rankings;
            – All states are required to have balanced state budgets. Not just your beloved, fiscally-responsible Tar Heel State. Even NJ and IL have balanced budgets;
            – The NC benefits package for state employees is good, but not outstanding. I see that once you were caught painting the misleading picture that teachers coming to NC would receive free health insurance, you owned up to the truth. I’d give you more credit for that but you had to go and lecture me on my very own point. And BTW, even individual NC state health coverage has required employee contributions —- for years. And for the record and as is your way, twice you failed to address the fact that GOP legislators are seriously considering ending retiree health coverage for new state employees.
            – Please just keep on believing that lowering an expected state revenue target will have nothing to do with the “creation” of surpluses. And while you’re at it, please continue to believe that planned annual state revenues weren’t slashed by the GOP tax reform.
            – For your edification, for much of the last 100 years, under Democratic control, NC has experienced population growth (with the possible exception of the WWII years). And at least between 1980 and 2010, the state experienced strong economic growth under Dem control, This had everything to do with wise government investments/policies in transportation, higher education, bio-technology, and RTP — in other words, the sorts of investments that the GOP-led NCGA has not made since 2011.

          • Ebrun

            Your comments are so full of misinformation, I am not sure where to start.

            !. A survey of state balanced budget laws by the National Council of State Legislatures found that 39 states have strong requirements for a balanced budget while 4 states have weak requirements, the other were somewhere in-between. But a 2009 study by the Institute for Truth in Accounting entitled “The Truth About Balanced Budgets: A Fifty State Survey” found that “balanced state budgets are largely a myth.”

            2. Your claim that, in 2015, most or many states enjoyed budget surpluses is demonstratively false. A cursory Google search reveals a number of states with serious budget problems including Alabama, Illinois, New Jersey, Connecticut, Missouri, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia, Oklahoma, Alaska. Pennsylvania, Wyoming and Louisiana. And there are a lot more. The Google search also revealed several recent articles on state budget problems:

            For Many American States, It’s Like the Recession Never …
            http://www.bloomberg.com/…/2015…/six-years-into-recovery-...
            Bloomberg L.P.

            May 19, 2015 – Thirty-two states faced budget gaps in fiscal 2015 or 2016 or both, according … While the shortfalls don’t pose immediate risks to credit quality, …
            States Confront Massive Budget Gaps – Huffington Post
            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/…/states-budget-gap...
            The Huffington Post
            Posted: 05/09/2015 11:22 am EDT Updated: 05/09/2015 5:59 pm EDT … “After all , if a state is grappling with a budget deficit now, with the economic expansion …

            Budget Gaps Hit States Hard – Congress.org
            congress.org/2015/05/18/budget-gaps-hit-states-hard/
            May 18, 2015 | by KSE FOCUS. In the fifth year of an … Among all states facing gaps, Illinois is facing the largest deficit by far this year and new Republican Gov.
            congress.org/2015/05/18/budget-gaps-hit-states-hard/

            3. You are also wrong that ” even individual NC state health coverage has required employee contributions —- for years.” While I don’t know the current requirement, I was covered by the individual NC State Health Plan from 1986 to 2004 and was never charged a dime for the annual premium.

            4. Yes, NC has experienced population and economic growth under both Democrat and Republican administrations for a number of years. But while Republicans and conservatives criticized many Democrat public policies, including extravagant spending and tax increases, there was never this level of mean spirited slander about the state as a whole and it political leadership that now pervades almost all liberal and left wing pundits and spokespersons. This vitriol can be heard and read from the leaders of the Democrat Party, the major metropolitan newspapers, liberal advocacy groups and left wing blogs and pundits like Mr. Mills who writes opinion essays for this site.

            5.Yes, new hires won’t have state health insurance coverage when they retire Unfortunately, Obamacare has greatly increased medical costs and health insurance premiums for not only the middle class, but for large employers, too. I suspect the premise behind this cost cutting measure is that retirees will be eligible for Medicare or will find coverage through Obamacare if they retire before 65.

            I am not going to engage in the personal insults, other that to say that many of your claims are quite disingenuous, that you and several other liberal commenters here have hurled at me. As the lone conservative that has posted on this thread, I am disappointed but not surprised at the invective that emanates from the left when their liberal orthodoxy is challenged thus making it hard to engage in civil discourse.

          • Progressive Wing

            Got to jump in here, as you are so clearly mistaken about state budgeting.

            You had claimed, with regard to NC, that “A balanced budget is required” implying that NC was a rarity among states in that regard. That is wrong. All states, with the exception of VT due to its state constitution provision, must balance their budgets and pass a balanced budget each year.

            You yourself provided the truth in this matter by sharing that particular Congress.org URL. Do you not read the references you cite?

            Here’s a passage from that URL: “Unlike the federal government, states cannot legally run a deficit. The National Conference of State Legislatures reports that 49 states have statutory and constitutional provisions mandating budgets are balanced, Vermont being the only exception.”

            From this and all the other URLs you offered re: state budget status, it’s clear to me that you don’t understand the difference between (a) when a state is running a deficit in its current fiscal year VERSUS (b) the legal requirement that states resolve any running deficits and pass a balanced budget for the forthcoming fiscal year.

            And having followed state budgeting closely since the 2009, I can tell you that the majority of states (not all, but the majority, as in more than 25) have had enough budget wherewithal to increase public education fiscal allocations (including teacher pay), and the majority of them have done so over the last 3 fiscal years. So I’ll agree with others here who have warned us to expect NC’s continued very low ranking in teacher salaries.

          • Ebrun

            Yes, all states but Vermont have some legal requirement to balance their budgets. Some have Constitutional provisions to that effect like NC, some have statutory requirements. But if you Google the web site for the Institute for Truth in Accounting, you will find a study that shows there are many ways the states have, through legal or accounting methods, to get around their balanced budget requirements. The study concludes that state balanced budgets are largely a myth.

            As far as state budget deficits are concerned, many states are having severe budget problems in 2015. Just Google “State Budget Shortfalls” and you will find a number of articles documenting budget problems in as many 32 states in 2015. North Carolina is one of only several states identified that are enjoying a budget surplus. Here is a link to just one of those articles: http://www.bloomberg.com/…/2015…/six-years-into-recovery-
            Bloomberg L.P.

  9. Two cents worth

    My two cents worth…
    I think we can agree that we all would like better schools, higher teacher pay, better roads, better bridges, etc. But very little has been said about the funding for such things. The liberals’ answer is to increase taxes on the rich. And as Obama has demonstrated, any tax increase on the rich is not enough. Liberals also want to decrease the tax burden on the poor, and preferably eliminate the taxes on the poor altogether to relive that burden. The fundamental problem is that if you have a majority of the population paying no taxes but having the voting power to spend the revenue, then there is no incentive to try to control expenditures. Any excessive spending does not matter to them because they have no skin in the game. They want to increase spending on the “feel good” items with other people’s money without sharing the responsibility of having to think critically of what is essential and what is merely desired. Our state constitution requires a balanced budget. If we want better schools and higher teacher pay, and of course we agree on that, then there must be a discussion of the other side of the issue, namely, which programs of the state are excessive and should be cut, and don’t just say to raise taxes on someone else.

  10. Smartysmom

    As a member of the unprogressive 1% who is supposedly benefitting from Republican policy, I’m nervous as hell. My “wealth” is self made in the stock market. Much of it is still there. That means I am getting rich only as our capitalistic economy grows. What worries me is that our economy is consummer based. The shift in wealth from the 99% to my side means that 99% of consumers can’t consume much of anything anymore. Without consumption driving it, our economy becomes a Ponzi scheme and eventually it will crash. That is going to do my side in along with everyone else. The present wrangling over the Republican presidential nomination reminds me of reading Gibbons “Rise and Fall…” and the final wrangling over who got to be emperor. So sad. Too bad… For all of us

    • Troy

      Smart Lady.

  11. Progressive Wing

    “A new report ranks North Carolina 42nd in the nation for teacher pay, despite raises approved last year. In 2014, the state ranked 47th in the country.

    According to estimates by the National Education Association, the national average teacher salary for 2014-2015 is $57,379. In North Carolina, it is $47,783.

    Last July, GOP leaders touted their pay plan as the largest in state history. They promised an average seven percent salary increase would boost North Carolina to 32nd in the country for teacher pay.

    The NEA report also reveals per pupil spending decreased from $8,632 in 2014 to $8,620 in 2015, ranking North Carolina among the lowest in the nation.”

    http://abc11.com/education/new-report-ranks-north-carolina-teachers-pay-/563728/

    NC Republicans want to make themselves feel good, give themselves a campaign edge as champions of education as they tout their “largest teaching salary increase in state history,” and telling us how their 2014 and 2015 budgets will somehow —just be patient now— boost the state out of the bottom 20 percent of state salary and per-pupil funding rankings. But they are wrong, or are lying, or both.

    • Ebrun

      The NEA is the national teachers’ union. They, along with their affiliated NC chapter the NCAE, were primarily responsible for the false advertising in support of Kay Hagan for Senator. They are not a credible source, as we found out in last year’s election campaign.

      • Progressive Wing

        Ebrun:

        Your response just once again proves—for all to see—that your role on these threads is simply to confound and muddy things up.

        The NEA teacher salary data has been the most highly scrutinized and widely-accepted source of US teacher salary data in the US for decades. It’s such a well-respected source that there are precious few other organizations that bother to conduct such a survey of teacher salaries each year. Almost every educational group and every news source uses and accepts NEA data. But their support of Hagan and your undocumented claim that they falsely advertised makes their data now somehow “not credible”?? Really? LOL.

        But, just for the record, here’s another independent and separate source of teacher salary data for you to try to discredit in your typically biased fashion: The National Center for Educational Statistics. NCES is “the primary federal entity for collecting and analyzing data related to education in the U.S. and other nations. NCES fulfills a Congressional mandate to collect, collate, analyze, and report complete statistics on the condition of American education; conduct and publish reports; and review and report on education activities internationally.”

        See the NCES data below, which ranked NC 48th out of 51 states/DC on teacher salaries, based on most recent 2012-13 computations. Any pay increases made by NC since 2012-13 are simply not substantive enough to have raised NC’s ranking out of the lowest 20% among states, if only because the other 50 states/DC have almost all been actively raising their own teacher salaries in recent years, too.

        IN SHORT, NC CONTINUES TO BE RANKED AMONG THE VERY LOWEST PAYING STATES IN TEACHER SALARIES. If you contest that fact, you are simply being, as is your tendency, closed-minded and unwilling to accept any fact that doesn’t fit your neo-con narrative and view.

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/12/15/how-much-teachers-get-paid-state-by-state/

        and

        http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.asp

        • Ebrun

          The teacher salary rankings from the NEA and the HUB web site are suspect for one very obvious reason: North Carolina is and has been for some time a NET IMPORTER of teachers from other states. From 2010 t0 2014, some 8500 public school teachers from other states were granted licenses to teach in NC. During that same period, 2,194 teachers left NC to teach in other states. That’s a net gain of 6306 teachers into NC.

          Even in the 2013-14 school year, 1985 teachers from other states were granted NC teacher licenses while 734 left NC to teach in other states for a net gain of 1251.These trends do not support the claim that that NC lags behind almost all other states in teacher compensation. And I would once again not rely on data from 2012-13 that does not include the seven percent pay raise last year and a smaller increase the year before.

          Sorry to “muddy things up” for you, P,W, but how would you explain these trends?

          • Progressive Wing

            Terrific, Ebrun. Another classic trolling tactic to save face. Just ignore all the facts presented and/or points made in the more recent posts (if they don’t support your case) and instead address older posts all over again.

            But, once again, in repeating yourself you demonstrate no skill nor open mind nor objectivity in data interpretation, and offer only specious arguments.

            I gave you a second data source –a federal source this time– showing NC salaries being among the lowest in the nation, but you simply ignore that data and just repeat your distrust of the NEA and HUB data.

            Then, you opine that NC salaries cannot possibly be that low because NC imports many teachers from other states. And you further asked for an explanation behind teachers coming here from other state.

            OK, easy!

            The main driver of that net inflow of teachers is the fact that NC is a fast-growing state with a fast growing number of new schools (publics and charters) and a fast-growing student population that needs to be educated. So the state has a net annual gain in the number of teacher positions needing to be filled (despite drops in per-pupil funding by NCGOP which forces more kids into each classroom).

            THAT is main reason why in-migration of teachers exceeds out-migration (perhaps exacerbated a bit by the state’s expanding number of charter schools, which have lower hiring standards than public schools).

            Bottomline? All available reputable salary surveys show NC teacher pay being in the bottom 20% among states, and about $10K less than the national average teacher salary. Compared to other states, NC still does not have comparatively attractive salaries for teachers — no matter what you or your GOP friends shout — or hope to see reflected in next year’s salary data.

            On that note, don’t hold your breath. 2014-15 data won’t show NC making any major improvement in the pay rankings among states. But, then again, you’ll just label those surveys as bogus, so why should you worry, right?

          • Ebrun

            For someone who keeps repeating points and has “no skill” and offers only “specious arguments,” wonder why you feel its necessary to spend a lot of time and computer type trying to refute my points.

            Your explanation of why NC is attracting so many public school teachers from other states. is because we are a “fast growing state” with many new students who need to be educated. Well, of course, what a brilliant analysis.

            But the whole jest of the opinion piece by Thomas Mills under this thread is that under GOP control, the state is declining in almost every economic and social indicator. So why are people migrating to NC? And if teaching conditions and teacher compensation are much worse here than in other states, why are teachers from other states choosing to teach here.

            These aren’t inexperienced teachers coming to NC. The migration data is for teachers who have received teaching licenses from other states. Are you suggesting that these are laid off teachers who can’t find teaching jobs elsewhere. That’s very unlikely.

            Bottom line is that you just can’t rectify the in-migration of teachers and the dynamic economic and population growth now occurring in NC with your and Mr. Mills’ clams that, under Republican control, social and economic conditions here are rapidly deteriorating. It’s all partisan propaganda from Democrats who have been swept out of power after being in control here for pretty much the past 100 years.

          • Ebrun

            With regard to state licensed charter schools, you suggest that they “have lower hiring standards than public schools.” I am not sure if teachers in state charter schools need a NC teaching license. If they do, then the hiring standards are similar to the public schools. If they don’t need a state teaching license, then they are not included in the teacher hiring data which is based on state teaching licenses issued and thus would not be included in the teacher migration data.

            BTW, data from the National Center for Education Statistics show the the teacher/pupil ratio in NC is below (better) than the national average. If so, this would seem to refute your claim that more kids are being forced into each classroom. But these numbers may be for 2012-13 and may not, as is the case with the teacher salary data, reflect the current situation here.

      • Progressive Wing

        I wholly agree with you. IMO, Ebrun does this blog site a disservice, as he has proven, time and time again, that his goal here is to roil, bait, and rile, rather than to clarify and get at the truth via good-faith discourse. And, as others have noted, he applies every trolling trick in the book to undermine any real dialogue.
        .

        • Ebrun

          When their ideology is challenged with factual information, liberals will invariably resort to personal insults. SOP for the radical left.

      • Ebrun

        More personal insults? Not very persuasive, especially when one makes statements like Kay Hagen lost because of “republican arranged voting districts….” Here’s a Civics 101 update for you D.g.: U.S. Senators are elected statewide, not by districts, republican or democrat.

        • Ebrun

          Last year, an incumbent Democrat U.S. Senator was in a very tight race for reelection. You claim she lost because of low voter turnout and “republican arranged voting districts.”

          Voting districts had nothing to do with her loss. Republicans turned out their voters, Democrats did not. Obviously many Democrat and independents were not impressed with her candidacy or were just not supportive of the Party’s legislative agenda, or both.

        • Ebrun

          It’s really not that complicated, D.g., but I’ll walk you through it. The data on the number of teachers from other states that were awarded NC teacher licenses is based on teaching licenses issued by the NC Department of Public Instruction. You claimed that Charter schools have lower hiring standards than public schools. If teachers are not required to have a NC license to teach in a NC Charter school, then those teachers would not be counted in the data on out of state teachers coming to NC.

          If, in fact, a teacher is required to have a NC teaching license to teach in a NC Charter school (I’ll confess I am not sure about that), then the state Charter schools would have similar hiring standards as regular public schools in the state.

  12. Apply Liberally

    Here are facts that can’t be refuted. Because some here just keep on ignoring or denying them, they need constant repeating:

    -NC ranked 50 out of 51 states+DC as best places to be a teacher.
    -NC teacher salaries ranked 42nd lowest among all 51 states+DC.
    -NC per-pupil spending ranked 43rd out of the 51 states+DC.
    -NC teachers with the most experience lost longevity pay benefits and have gotten no or very low salary increases in 2014 and 2015, and thus, with inflation taken into account, have actually seen their salaries cut in the last two years.

    The reality — rejected by some based of their political ideology — is that things are just plain bad for teachers in NC. And thanks to NCGOP “leadership” since 2011, no great progress is being made to reverse this sad situation any time soon.

    .

    • Ebrun

      A.L.:The teacher salary data you refer to is for 2103 and does not reflect the seven percent across-the-board salary increase the NCGA applied last year, nor does it include the recently-passed bonus and increase in longevity step level pay. It also does not include substantial increases in teacher retirement benefits. Since 2008-09 to 2015-16, the rate the state contributes to teachers’ retirement went from 8.14% to 15.32% of salary.

      The best place to teach survey came from a left wing web site that was released during last year’s Senate race. Its timing and some incongruities in the survey’s methodology suggest that it was designed to help reelect Democrat Kay Hagan. And we all know how well that worked out. The voters just didn’t buy the misleading claims of the Democrats and their teacher union allies about education spending in NC.

      And BTW, the annual U.S inflation rate for 2014 was 0.8% and this year so far the rate of inflation has only been 0.2%.

      • Ebrun

        The seven percent across the board pay raise was in 2014. Yes, that was the average, some got a higher percent, some got less. This year everyone got the $750 bonus. And the 5. 10. 15 and 20 year pay step salaries were increased substantially. So that will eventually benefit every teacher who stays on.

        • Progressive Wing

          “The seven percent across the board pay raise was in 2014. Yes, that was the average, some got a higher percent, some got less.”
          LOL.
          Some got waaay less, as in zero. Some even got a cut. Conveniently not mentioned by our resident NCGOP apologist.
          I know two teaching acquaintances, one who got nil, the other who got cut 2%.
          .

          • Ebrun

            I’d want to see their pay stubs before I bought into that claim. The state now contributes 15.32% of teachers’ salaries to their retirement. And their health insurance benefit is valued at $5,471. I’ll bet they didn’t mention the continuing increase in benefits they receive that are paid for by the state.

  13. Mooser

    Ebrun, you STILL refuse to say anything about inflation. Just to “break even,” spending has to increase by about 2% per year. That means since 2008, the budget should have increased almost 15% just due to inflation alone. And that doesn’t even count enrollment growth. Back in the “good old days” prior to 2008, the Democrats in the legislature at least tried to keep up with inflation during recession years. I remember after the recession late in 2001/early 2002, they STILL managed to give state employees a 1.9% raise in 2002 and a 2% raise in 2003. Then after the economy improved, they tried to make up for two lean years with a 9% raise the next year. That is a fact, Ebrun. Also, in 2008 in the midst of the worst recession since the Depression, the GA still gave a 3% increase that year. The current bunch are just tossing state employees a bone, so they can say “See, we gave you $750 – what else do you want?”

    • Ebrun

      Mooser: Annual inflation rates for the five year period since the GOP took over the NCGA in 2011 are between 1.24 and 1.44 percent. (Different sites show slightly different numbers, probably due to rounding). Even if we accept the higher estimate of annual inflation of 1.44 percent, state spending for K-12 public education increased by 20 percent during that period . So the average increase for NC K-12 public education was 4 percent a year, well ahead of the annual inflation rate.

      And, BTW, as a former state employee, I totally agree that state employees deserve a large pay increase. Last year, public school teachers in NC received an average 7 percent pay raise while other state employees got little or nothing. Those who complain the loudest get all the attention from the public and from the General Assembly.

      • Ebrun

        Keep trying. It may come to you yet.

  14. Apply Liberally

    Give it up, Dg. When Ebrun is losing his arguments, he just goes into diversion/digression/pontificating mode, and misleads with prevarication and inaccuracies.

    Note that he gave you a long lecture about unemployment rate calculations, but never refutes the fact that NC unemployment has been trending up in recent months, and still trails over half the other states.

    His education spending figures still don’t take into account inflation, and are based only on absolute numbers. Plus, he now drags in the notion of added local and federal education spending to try to make his ” public education spending increase” argument work. But it still doesn’t.

    He claims that NC per-pupil spending is close to the national average, which is just plainly wrong. The more recent data show NC’s per-pupil spending ranks it 43 out of the 51 states/DC.

    He again fails to address the slow pace and uneven allocation of teacher salary increases in NC. Rather, he takes pride in saying that “Teacher pay in NC has been increased every year since the GOP took over”—which is just plain smoke-blowing. Like in most every other profession, teacher salaries in the 50 states don’t decrease with each passing year, but can and do often fail –like NC’s– to keep up with the national average and other state pay levels.

    Lastly, he cherry-picks and partially cites DPI data to say “many more teachers from other states are coming to teach in NC that those who are leaving to teach in other states” which doesn’t consider those many NC teachers who have left or are leaving the profession outright.

    I thought I could keep myself from countering Ebrun’s lame posts, but when he makes it so easy to do so, one gets lured back in thr fray. I’ll try harder……

    • Ebrun

      I know how you and D.g. don’t like to deal with actual numbers A.l., but here are some more for you to ignore. From the fiscal years of 2011-12 to FY 2013-14, 5,945 teachers from out of state were granted licenses to teach in North Carolina and were employed as teachers the next year. During that same time period, 1,530 resigned their teaching positions in NC to teach in other states. That’s makes a net of increase of 4,415 teachers that NC gained from other states during that three year period under GOP control of state government.

      Gee, I guess these teachers coming here from other states just haven’t heard the Democrats’ propaganda about how bad teaching conditions are here.

      Data was compiled from information provided by NC Dept of Public Instruction. Figures are not yet available for 2014-15.

      • Progressive Wing

        Your argument has a few major holes in logic and understanding.

        No state in the United States fills it teaching vacancies wholly from within. All states have a large teacher hiree in-migration.

        The number of those with teaching degrees from NC public universities (historically the state’s biggest source newly minted educators) has declined significantly. Most analysts who track such things agree that it’s because college students see no value in K-12 teaching, especially given the poor salary prospects here in NC and also the disrespect shown the profession in this state. The end result is that, to operate, NC schools need out-of-state hirees more than ever.

        The DPI figures do not account for NC teachers leaving teaching altogether as a job.

        Try reading. It can be educational. See:

        https://wallethub.com/edu/best-and-worst-states-for-teachers/7159/

        • Ebrun

          In 2014, 969 NC teachers left the teaching profession for other careers, according to the report from the DPI to the NCGA. While the number for new teachers from other states is not yet available for 2014, the prior three year average of out-of-state teachers receiving NC licenses was1472 for per year. And this does not include the number of new teachers that were hire from in state. (I haven’t seen a number on new hires from in state).

          The problem with declining numbers of college graduates with teaching degrees is not limited to NC. It is a national trend. I would suspect it has as much to do with the failure of college education departments to adopt new approaches to learning in their curricula as it is in students seeing no value in teaching.

          You can try to spin all you like and cite left wing web sites, but the state numbers are there for anyone to find. Try checking out the actual numbers. It can be educational.

    • Ebrun

      D.g., You forgot to mention that the national average for spending per student from 2008 to 2014 was -4.4 percent. Thus, looks like NC did a little better than the national average. And since the GOP took over in 2011, state spending for K-12 public education has increased 20 percent, well above the annual rate of inflation.

      The decreasing number of students seeking education degrees is a national trend not isolated to NC. With all the new and exciting career opportunities in technological fields, it is not surprising that students would choose other fields than the staid old teaching curricula offered by most schools of education.

      By the way, your comments could be more effective if you could just resist the urge to engage in personal insults. (“Clown”, really?) Seems liberals resort to name calling whenever their leftist conventional wisdom is challenged.

      • Ebrun

        Gosh, D.g., you sure can be verbose responding to my comments that you assert are “completely off subject.” You’re wasting a lot of computer time just repeating the same old tired, left wing talking points. You need some new material.

        And BTW, I have a MA degree and seriously doubt you are qualified to lecture me on how to stay in Graduate School.

  15. Ebrun

    Wow Dg, what a menu of condensation, misinformation and dogmatic hyperbole.

    The unemployment rate is released by BLS based on their monthly Household Survey, which is conducted independently from their Payroll Survey which surveys employers and estimates the number employed. Based on responses from the Household Survey, the BLS estimates the U.S. unemployment rate using population data from the Census Bureau. (Yes, I did err in citing the Census Bureau. The BLS issues the data using population data provided by the Census Bureau.)

    Those receiving unemployment compensation are not taken into account in determining the U.S. unemployment rate. The Household Survey asks if anyone in the Household is unemployed and looking for work. Some folks receiving unemployment compensation may not be actively seeking work. Once their unemployment checks stop and they start looking for work, they will be picked up in the Household Survey. Thus, losing unemployment compensation actually ADDS to those on the unemployment rolls (not roles).

    The figures I quote on education spending are the ACTUAL dollars spent or budgeted.There is nothing misleading about them, they are the real figures on state spending. Actually, more is spent because the state education spending I cited does not include federal education funds spent in NC nor does it include local supplements.

    Education spending per student is just under $9,000 per student (including capital expenditures) In NC which is very close to the national average. Teacher pay in NC has been increased every year since the GOP took over the NBGA and another increase is predicted in the next budget.

    Data from NC the Dept of Public Instruction show that many more teachers from other states are coming to teach in NC that those who are leaving to teach in other states. This another of these liberal myths that has no basis in fact.

    I realize citing actual facts and figures is a real thorn in the side of liberals who post here, but resorting to comments like we really ought to “trip on over” to China is really sophomoric and suggests a dearth of rational thinking on your part.

  16. Apply Liberally

    Yes, David, Mooser and Troy. Ebrun is indeed back with his Civitas and NCGOP-approved talking points, offering his counterpoints in absolute dollars figures, which ignores inflation, the growing population of the state, and the increasing student population ; failing to acknowledge that NC’s economic recovery has trailed that of other states; giving lame excuses for NC’s rising unemployment rate; refusing to see that limiting people’s timed eligibility for unemployment equates to “kicking people off the unemployment roles”; gullibly believing that teacher pay has been increased fairly “across the board”; never using comparative per-pupil state spending figures over the last 5 years; and conveniently not mentioning the many sales taxes increases that are regressive in nature, thus affecting those in the middle and lower economic classes more harshly.

    And of course, he cannot resist throwing words and barbs around, like “hoax,” “class warfare sophistry,” and “big lie.”

    I went around and around with Ebrun on a previous blog’s comment thread. He has obviously memorized and cut-and-pasted certain passages from his neo-con sources, as his phrasing on his most recent tedious comment is identical to that of those earlier posts. And, even were you to ask him to cite his sources, he’ll at first send partial ones that don’t directly support the points he has made.

    I won’t waste my time with another post on this thread that addresses any his points/rejoinders. It would lead only to more of his effort to roil and confound—-which is just the way such internet political trolls want it.

    • Troy

      AL, I read the exchange you had in the other thread with our 50 minute friend chapter and verse. For you, I’m sure it was like trying to teach a pig to sing; wastes your time and annoys the pig.

      So I understand your last paragraph completely.

      • Apply Liberally

        Troy: It was educational if not fun. It was a refresher course on how to interact with his sort, as in:
        -never answer any questions until trolls first answer questions put to them earlier;
        -always keep a sharp eye out for opinion or fantasy bias dressed up as fact;
        -and read any given citations/sources carefully, as most of the time they don’t support the points being made.

    • Ebrun

      Not one number cited, no factual information. Just lefty opinions. It seems you can lead liberals to some facts, but you can’t make ’em think.

      • Charles underwood

        I don’t believe there was a fact in your entire diatribe except for your reference to increased business profits.

  17. Troy

    Someone needs to check with the GA and see if they’re missing an idiot. One seems to have turned up. Replete with charts, graphs, and a 30 day supply of “non-partisan” statistics.

  18. Mooser

    So right, David. Ole Ebrun does what most Republicans do – when it comes to spending they always talk in absolute dollars. They NEVER adjust for inflation. A billion dollars in 2008 isn’t the same as a billion dollars today. Spending needs to increase between 2 to 3 percent just to keep up with inflation. They also ignore per-pupil spending as well. Typical.

  19. David

    Whenever conservatives resort to saying “class warfare” you know a bunch of hooey supporting rich people is going to follow…

  20. Ebrun

    More class warfare sophistry. From July’14 to July’15, total employment in NC increased by 135,790, or 3.1 percent. Private sector employment increased by 112,600, or 3.3 percent according to a report from M Walden of NC State and the NC Department of Commerce.

    And according to the nonpartisan staff of the NCGA’s Fiscal Research Division, the $445 million budget surplus the the state enjoyed this year was primarily from tax receipts from increased business activity (I.e., profits) and new job creation. (See Memo from the Fiscal Research Division to the NC General Assembly, dated May 10, 2015.)

    The unemployment rate did increase from 5.3% to 5.9%, but this is attributed to discouraged workers re entering the labor market as economic conditions improve. And BTW, no one is “kicked off the unemployment roles” (sic). The unemployment rate is determined by a U.S. Census Bureau Household Survey that asks respondents if any person in the household is unemployed and actively seeking a job. The number receiving unemployment compensation is not the number used to determine the unemployment rate.

    Democrats continue to promote the big lie that the state income tax cuts increased the tax burden on the middle class. Not only was the income tax rate cut for all taxpayers, the standard deduction was practically doubled which greatly benefits most low and middle income taxpayers who cannot take advantage of itemized deductions. And in the recently passed state budget, the standard deduction was increased another $500 for married couples, a little less for heads of household and single filers.

    But the biggest Democrat hoax concerns the level of education spending. Since the 2011-12 biennium when the GOP took control of the NCGA, spending on public education has increased from $10.8 billion to$12.3 billion, or over 14%. K-12 public school spending has increased by 20 percent during that period.

    In the recently adopted state budget for 2016, public education spending was increased by $530 million, including $121 million for the UNC system. Of course, when you ask a Democrat about education spending, their answer will be that more is never enough.

    And speaking of the NC university system, the General Assembly just authorized a bond issue election for next Spring that, if passed, will provide almost a billion dollars ( $980 million) to be spent on the UNC system, plus additional spending on the state’s community colleges.

    Finally, teacher pay has been increased across the board, and new teachers and those with less that five years tenure will receive a $2,000 increase in salary plus a $750 bonus.

    And yes, under Republican control, the state has adopted prudent financial planning by adding millions to the state’s reserve or “rainy day funds” to insure against future catastrophic events like a hurricane or major recession.

    • Progressive Wing

      Dg:

      Expect him to reject some or all of your data as inaccurate or biased or misleading.

      Or he may switch the focus away from those figures and spout about all the “wonderful” fringe benefits teachers get (which are truly not much better –or are even worse– than in other states).

      Or, he may just ignore all your comparative figures and divert our attention toward the number of new teachers migrating into the state (as he remains blind to the facts that NC has a growing student population, thus more new schools, thus more teachers openings, and that people will always take jobs when they need work—even if those jobs are poorly recompensed).

      We know his posting games and his tactics.

      • Ebrun

        D.g, your data just doesn’t jive with data from the NC Dept of Public Instruction’s Financial and Business Services division. A per pupil spending table just updated in September, 2015 shows per pupil spending in NC public schools increased from $5505 in 2011-12 to $5881 in 2015-16. http://lockerroom. johnlocke.org/2015/10/20/updated-dpi-chart-shows-larger-per-student-increase-than-first-thought/

        And I see you you’re still on a rampage over Charter schools. Despite all your protestations, it looks like state-authorized Charter schools are here to stay. And you really never answered my question of why you think education bureaucrats are better suited to determine where children should be educated than their parents.

      • Ebrun

        I am satisfied with the numbers provided by the Department of Public Instruction, which, as I am sure you know, is controlled by a Democrat Secretary. If spending per pupil went up between 2011-12 and 2015-16, then overall spending had to substantially increase because there were more pupils in the entire state system. I saw one estimate that total state enrollment increased by 45,000.

        • Progressive Wing

          I’ve just got to say it. So what? Even with any per-pupil increase in spending since 2013, NC still ranks among the lowest per-pupil spending states in the nation. That small increase may make you feel good about the NCGOP, but the state’s ranking makes me feel bad about the education that the next generation of North Carolinians will receive.

          • Ebrun

            More spending is never enough, right? And there is little or no proven correlation between increases in education spending and student achievement. Inputs can’t be judged in a vacuum, they need to be compared with results to determine their effectiveness.

          • Progressive Wing

            Uh-huh, once again, you shift contexts and never address the point of a reply. You proudly post on fiscal matter (GOP funding of public ed), and when it’s put in comparative perspective with other states, you clam up and veer over to student achievement.Your act has become just too transparent.

      • Ebrun

        I tried to copy and paste the table, but it wouldn’t paste. I’ll try it again.

      • Troy

        Please note, I tried to access the website cited on the John Locke website at the bottom of the graph but received a 404 message after manually typing the website into my browser. I could find no chart like that referenced. I’m not saying it’s a dead link or intentionally misrepresented, just that I couldn’t find it. One of you may have better luck.

        The following is copied directly from the State website: http://www.ncpublicschools.org/budget/

        2015-17 BUDGET INFORMATION
        During the 2015 long session of the North Carolina General Assembly, lawmakers will create a state budget to support public schools, as well as many other government functions, for the next two years. The decisions legislators will make this session will be critical to the future of our students and the state, particularly since public schools currently face the following budget challenges:

        There are fewer adults in North Carolina’s public schools than there were seven years ago, yet we have 43,000 more students.

        The amount of textbook funding per student has gone from $68 per student in 2008-09 to about $15 per student in 2014-15. That is a 78% reduction.

        Dollars for instructional supplies have been reduced from $59 per student in 2008-09 to about $28 per student in 2014-15.

      • Ebrun

        D.g., the figures on ADM are not mine, they come from the Dept of Public Instruction, Business and Fiscal Services. ADM is the way per pupil education spending is measured. The figures you cited were from years 08-09 to ’14-’15. They did not include the recent spending budgeted for 2015-16. And all of the total education spending cuts occurred during the recession years of ’09-’10 and ’10-’11.The first budget year the Republicans took over the NCGA was 2011-12. The DPI table on per pupil (ADM) spending clearly shows that spending has increased every year since 2011-12.

      • Ebrun

        No doubt we’ve debated this subject ad nauseam. But just two clarifications. All teachers with 1 to 5 years longevity will a $2,000 raise under the new budget because the salary for new hires was raised by $2,000. It wouldn’t make since to pay a new teacher with no experience more than a teacher with 2, 3, or 4 years experience.

        The 5, 10, 15 and 20 year pay increases are substantial and will benefit all teachers who reach those plateaus. And it should provide a pay incentive for teachers to stay to receive a substantial pay raise at 5, 10, 15 years, etc.

        Finally, the data just don’t support your claim that we are losing many teachers to other states. As I have shown, NC is gaining more experienced teachers from other states than it is losing to other states. Experienced teachers leaving NC for another state would lose their NC retirement credits unless the other state counted their previous experience in another state toward retirement in their new state. I don’t know if most states do that.

    • Ebrun

      I appreciated your civil response, D.g. For now, we’ll just have to agree to disagree as far as this thread is concerned. There are other posts here in need of response and we will no doubt find other subjects to debate.

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