Yesterday, Governor Roy Cooper declared a state of emergency for public education. Republicans, of course, howled. They accused of him being desperate as the legislature exercises its veto-proof majority to pass legislation with no checks or balances. Cooper is not desperate. He’s sounding the alarm and he’s setting the stage for the 2024 election.
The Republicans’ plan to create a statewide voucher system is radical, reckless, and irresponsible. They are dismantling our public education system to satisfy the whims of their base. They have no evidence that shifting the state’s funding formula from “systems to students,” as they say, will improve the quality of education for our children, but they know the program will shift money from schools that serve poor families to the pockets of wealthy donors and their evangelical base.
The voucher scheme is radical in both its scope and its goals. Voucher programs have usually been designed to allow low-income families to send their children to private schools. In that arrangement, the state pays part of the child’s tuition and the school usually pays part through scholarships and the parents may pick up some of the cost. The Republicans’ plan in North Carolina has nothing to do with providing assistance to poor people and everything to do with putting more money into the pockets of wealthy families who can already afford private schools. They fundamentally do not believe in shared public responsibility. They are breaking a significant part of the North Carolina’s social contract, the obligation to provide a sound basic education to all of our children. That’s radical, not conservative.
The scheme is reckless because no research or prior program indicates that it will provide better outcomes for our children. The only state that has a program even close to as broad as the one North Carolina is about to impose is Arizona where their voucher scheme is off to a rocky start with the vast majority of funds going to students who already go to private schools. We’re about to make our children guinea pigs in a right-wing experiment that will impact their economic and social well-being for the rest of their lives. We don’t have any evidence that the outcomes for our children will be better and plenty of evidence to show that they could be worse. Studies show that students who leave public schools for private ones see a significant drop in test scores.
The scheme is irresponsible because it panders to political and religious zealots instead of the broader public and because private schools have no oversight despite the fact that they are about to see a huge influx of public funds. Republicans who once demanded accountability are about to shovel millions, if not billions, of dollars into a program with no goals or benchmarks and a huge opportunity for fraud. How many for-profit schools are going to pocket public funds without delivering a sound, basic education? Where are the guard rails?
Cooper’s declaration is sounding a needed alarm. Parents and citizens need to know what is happening to their school system. The GOP voucher scheme is not a tweak. It’s a dramatic overhaul of the system without any accountability. Children will almost certainly bear the brunt of the change. Not all children. Just those who need support the most. It will be a windfall for private schools and rich parents. It will ghettoize schools in poor systems. And it’s a violation of the state’s constitution that guarantees all children a sound education.
There’s a saying that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We’re seeing it here in North Carolina with a veto-proof Republican majority in the legislature and a politically compliant Supreme Court. The GOP is passing legislation that lacks popular support and imposing it on the state. They’ve passed a draconian abortion law and now they are dismantling the state’s public school system. Voters need to know what is happening and Cooper is in the best position of anyone to let them know. I would argue it’s his responsibility. Most people aren’t paying enough attention to see what the legislature is doing. With his veto rally last week and his announcement yesterday, Cooper is doing his job to keep the people who elected him informed about what’s happening in Raleigh. It was both a public service announcement and a call to arms. I hope people heard it.
Thomas Mills is the founder and publisher of PoliticsNC.com. Before beginning PoliticsNC, Thomas spent twenty years as a political and public affairs consultant. Learn more >
This is a continuation of the thread presently running that posted last on 27 MAY at 0045. For some reason, weekends are not my friend when writing here.
No, no you haven’t “…made it clear.” No, no it isn’t, “In (sic) the case of abortion I’ve said before just call it what it is. Murder.” Once again, no, you haven’t “…explained clearly elsewhere what defines life.”
I could continue in my imitation of you, but that is sufficient. Point being, you haven’t done anything except attempt to define particular terms in a particular way in order to suit you. Law nor life work that way. Frankly, it you had been explicit in your explanations, there wouldn’t be quite so many people misunderstanding you, your intent, and the meaning behind them.
Perhaps those things were quite clear in your head when you wrote those things. It didn’t make it to the posts you’ve written and then added to this site. Not just this one, not just this particular thread, but across the spectrum of what you’ve posted about.
You are sir, the most naive person that I’ve encountered writing here. You trust and believe what the legislators tell you regarding the intent and purpose of various pieces of legislation. You call into question and demand proof for anything that calls the status quo into question. No, you don’t have to prove anything. Neither do I nor does anyone else who posts here. Besides, when presented with the facts or the definition, or the “evidence” as you like to use that word, you revert back to what you believe and stand on that. Circular logic in a linear argument. You could have started and stayed with, “This is what I believe and I’m going to stick to that, no matter what you say…” and everything else would be purely an exercise in futility. There’s no way to change your mind, despite what is presented. Of course, you don’t want it changed, do you?
No one that posts here, I believe, is so cemented in their views that they could not be swayed by new facts and evidence to the contrary on any point of view. Unless they state otherwise; and you have. So this is really just argument for the sake of.
My opinion, again.
The constitutional provision prohibiting government from expending tax funds on schools that indoctrinate students in their beliefs is based on the notion of freedom of religion.
Freedom of religion cannot exist without separation of church and state. For the state to subsidize a private school that teaches one view of religion is discrimination against other religions that have a different view. The state currently provides schools that do not teach religion nor discriminate as to race, sex etc. Moreover, are governed by an elected board of education. Taxpayers come from many different religions. The fact one taxpayer pays more than another or has a right to determine how his taxes are spent is irrelevant as these funds are used to promote the general welfare which each taxpayer shares equally not based on their contribution.
Moreover, the folks who wrote the constitution were aware of how the King’s religion was forced down the throats of the general population and used for nefarious purposes.
I recall that a few constitutional scholars promoted the notion that government should not make a distinction based on religion. If education is a right, government can be in the business of subsidizing individual rights. Example the Veterans Bill of Rights allowed the government to pay tuition of vets to obtain a degree. There is a case pending before the court that addresses whether public funds can be used to subsidize an individual to attend a religious school. Conservative Justices have suggested that public funds are not going directly to religious schools, but to individual tuition. Therefore, the state is not using taxpayer funds to subsidize religion. Of course, it is absurd to assume the specific religion is not benefiting.
Racial, sex discrimination presents a different issue. Discrimination based on race or sex is prohibited. To employ the notion of subsidizing individual rights is a travesty. The KKK could open a school teaching their value system and expect the state to fund it. There are not good people on both sides of that issue.
Real public schools accept every kid that shows up at their door, provides instruction from teachers that have met high standards and are continually being educated to improve their skills. Moreover, are governed by locally elected members of the community. To take funds away from these schools to subsidize schools that may or may not have to maintain equal or better standards is a disservice to the youth of this state.
“…The constitutional provision prohibiting government from expending tax funds on schools that indoctrinate students in their beliefs is based on the notion of freedom of religion….” Please cite. I know of no such thing.
“…Freedom of religion cannot exist without separation of church and state…” Incorrect
“…For the state to subsidize a private school that teaches one view of religion is discrimination against other religions that have a different view….” Incorrect. Since it will be an individual person spending their money. The state has no role in the choices. Which is as it should be.
…”The state currently provides schools that do not teach religion nor discriminate as to race, sex etc….” So?
…”Moreover, are governed by an elected board of education….” vs what? a board of professionals who run the school, that are , accountable directly to the parents who pay the tuition and the State level department education? Its a wash really.
“…Taxpayers come from many different religions. The fact one taxpayer pays more than another or has a right to determine how his taxes are spent is irrelevant as these funds are used to promote the general welfare which each taxpayer shares equally not based on their contribution….” How arrogant of you to hand wave away the rights of parents. Its this arrogance that has caused this issue to come to the fore all over the country.
“,,,Moreover, the folks who wrote the constitution were aware of how the King’s religion was forced down the throats of the general population…” which is not happening at all anywhere.
“…and used for nefarious purposes…” and that would be?
“…I recall that a few constitutional scholars promoted the notion that government should not make a distinction based on religion….Which is not happening here.
“…If education is a right, government can be in the business of subsidizing individual rights….” Thus a voucher system.
“,,,Example the Veterans Bill of Rights allowed the government to pay tuition of vets to obtain a degree..” well there is that Servitude thing you have to do to get the “right” it more like an earned benefit than a right. So your point is moot.
“…There is a case pending before the court…” Which court I will read the case
“…that addresses whether public funds can be used to subsidize an individual to attend a religious school. Conservative Justices have suggested that public funds are not going directly to religious schools, but to individual tuition. Therefore, the state is not using taxpayer funds to subsidize religion…” It all comes down to whose money it is. In my view taxes came from a private individual, it was TAKEN from them. Its their property and they have a claim to it. There is nothing wrong with a taxpayer clawing back his funds to use his way.
“Racial, sex discrimination presents a different issue. Discrimination based on race or sex is prohibited…” Just an aside Cooper sent his girls to a private exclusive GIRLS Religious HIGH SCHOOL So he is Guilty of supporting sex discrimination! and that school did not integrate until 1970! and Black student did graduate from there until 1981!
“…To employ the notion of subsidizing individual rights is a travesty….” There are only individual rights. The smallest “group there is in the individual.” the country is founded on individual God given rights.
“…The KKK could open a school teaching their value system and expect the state to fund it.,, ” Yes they could. But its highly unlikely the school would last very long since no one would go to it,
“…Real public schools accept every kid that shows up at their door…” As do many private schools.
“…provides instruction from teachers that have met high standards….” Debatable. I personally have not been impressed by any public school teacher. I found them of at best a “middling” intellect., and I’m not an Einstein.
“,,,and are continually being educated to improve their skills…” Debatable.
…Moreover, are governed by locally elected members of the community…” Who generally do a horrible job and worry about reelection. Vs, A board of people who have students AT THAT SCHOOL at best Its a wash in my book the elected school board does not add any benefit as we have seen all over the country.
…To take funds away from these schools to subsidize schools that may or may not have to maintain equal or better standards is a disservice to the youth of this state.,,,” To trap people into using a system that is not serving them is a disservice to the youth of this state.
You are off your game, and out of your league.
So you know how to cut and paste! Amazing
I could teach you. If you have the capacity to learn it that is. Its not certain
As a government lawyer I know you are probably more skilled with fill in the blanks.
But hey, maybe.
Discrimination promoted by a governmental agency is in clear violation of the Constitutional equal protection clause and the 1964 Civil rights act. These private schools select students meeting their standards, which may include race, religion, social background. For Republicans to use my tax money to support a private school which discriminates or promotes discrimination is intolerable
A parent who finds the notion of their white child going to school with Black children to be offensive or want their child indoctrinated with their religious views has the option of using their own funds to send their kid to a private school which embodies their views. For Republicans to encourage this practice by offering my tax money to parents who find this practice acceptable is doing indirectly what is prohibited directly by law.
But it is their tax money too. Isn’t it? Everyone pays in and that portion that is theirs should be used anyway they want. Its for the education of the children of THAT taxpayer not a school system. The money is for the STUDENT.
“… These private schools select students meeting their standards, which may include race, religion, social background….”
So? Its private, they can set whatever rules they want. Some take all comers, some don’t. Sorry you don’t like it. but if a person wants to use their money that way they can. (Just like Cooper did.) Personally I think if your income is on the public dime you HAVE to use public schools you get no choice.
“…or Republicans to use my tax money to support a private school which discriminates or promotes discrimination is intolerable.”
If its do intolerable will be moving? Are you going to make a protest by lighting yourself on fire? Hold a sign? light a candle? write a furious post? are you “literally shaking? lol. Guess what? Your tax money is YOUR tax money and My tax money is MY tax money and THEIR tax money is THEIRS! you, me, or they should be able to spend it how we want, What is wrong with that?
“…A parent who finds the notion of their white child going to school with Black children to be offensive or want their child indoctrinated with their religious views has the option of using their own funds to send their kid to a private school which embodies their views…”
Guess what they do! and its their right to do so as a free person. But to be fair you could insert any race with any other race. Or insert any other number of problems a person could have for not wanting a public school. Sometime its just does not fit the student. Which is what we should be concerned about. The person, the student, not the system.
Why then should a person be on the hook for a system they don’t use or don’t want to use, or that cannot help or educate their child? You do know there are children that a traditional public school will not work for? and the alternatives are expensive? Not everyone is rich like Cooper and can sent their child to a private school (that costs more a year than some public COLLEGES, talk about elite sheesh!) Should they be forced to pay for a system THEY CAN”T USE! Where is your compassion? Not everyone fits neatly into the public school mold! What about them?
Hell! Cooper even signed a proclamation for School Choice! Did he mean it? or did he mean choice as in he tells you which public schools you can use? When the choices are made for you, is there really a choice?
NC is supposed to give a sound basic education. No one says its has to be a centralized run system. The money belongs to the individual taxpayer for the education of THEIR children Not their neighbors.
People are free. You don’t own them, neither you nor the state have a right to make any choices for them. Who do you think you are? If people have individual choose to murder their children, then they also have individual choice free in how they educate them.
Anyway it’s voluntary. If you don’t want to use it, Don’t.
Democrats just don’t want to lose power to the people.
Ringlet86, your commentary demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how the tax system works in the State of North Carolina as well as the Federal government. Each year that you and I along with other taxpayers meet our tax obligations to the state, all those monies go to the General Fund of the state to provide the funding for the constitutional obligations of the state as appropriated by the legislature through the budget. There are no longer individual taxpayer accounts for you or I to access. That budget requires measures of accountability for the use of those funds, which is fiscally responsible; whereas the Opportunity Scholarship program that is separate from the budget, has no accountability built in which is totally fiscally irresponsible. Governor Cooper and Thomas Mills are spot-on with their analysis of the situation. Public dollars for public schools that are the constitutional obligation.
“Ringlet86, your commentary demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of how the tax system works in the State of North Carolina as well as the Federal government. Each year that you and I along with other taxpayers meet our tax obligations to the state, all those monies go to the General Fund of the state to provide the funding for the constitutional obligations of the state as appropriated by the legislature through the budget. There are no longer individual taxpayer accounts for you or I to access….” Yes I know this, But I also know that its is easy for the state to know what each tax payer put in if they want to. In fact they HAVE to know. There may not be an individual account, but the is an individual amount that is known and available at all times.
“…Public dollars for public schools that are the constitutional obligation….” Public money is going to public schools it does not say ONLY to public schools.
I think the opportunity Scholarship program is for this portion of the mandate
from the NC const. … “wherein equal opportunities shall be provided for all students.”
Public schools although available cannot always provide an equal opportunity. Thus the “opportunity Scholarship…
I really think its much to do about nothing. Its a voluntary plan. People should have the right to choose for themselves. They know better than anyone what is best for them and their families.
Anyway we have veto coming (There a real surprise!) and an override (maybe)
I never expected Cooper to be such an obstructionist. If I’d known he would be so closed minded I’d never have voted for him. Once again I find myself disappointed by modern Democrats. When did they become so closed minded.
Its not a good look.
“…The money belongs to the individual taxpayer for the education of THEIR children Not their neighbors.”
That a fact? Well then, why am I paying taxes for a school system then? I don’t have children to send. SO, why am I paying? Better yet, why am I supporting public education? Because, it’s public education, not person education. I am a part of this state and nation. When last I checked, that is what being a part of something is supposed to be about. We all contribute for the greater good. Not just the parts I use or benefit me. I’m guessing you didn’t serve in the military either.
The public education system is there for everyone. IF you don’t think your needs are being met, or you want other options, great. You are free to pursue them. But the money doesn’t follow you. That is your choice. If you opt not use public education, feel free, but the money stays where it is. Just because you don’t use a service provided by government is completely irrelevant.
The rest of that is just run-on dystopian gibberish. You know, I believed that beneath it all, you had a rational view that skewed well right of center. After what I just read, you’ve taken a deep dive down the rabbit hole. That’s a shame.
“…That a fact? Well then, why am I paying taxes for a school system then…” technically you shouldn’t have to. Compulsory “charity” for lack of a better term.isn’t charity at all.
“…The public education system is there for everyone. IF you don’t think your needs are being met, or you want other options, great. You are free to pursue them…” Which is the point of a voucher system. Thanks for making the point. Many can’t pay for an alternatives but the public schools don’t work for them. They can’t afford to pay TWICE for school. Should they just suck it up and make do? We can’t do better than that?
Personally I don’t mind public education, But I am open to the idea that does not always fit the current form. It can and should be malleable to the individual. It does not have to be only one way. There are many ways to achieve the goal. Really. It will be ok.
“…The rest of that is just run-on dystopian gibberish. You know, I believed that beneath it all, you had a rational view that skewed well right of center. After what I just read, you’ve taken a deep dive down the rabbit hole. That’s a shame….”
What is it you have issue with? That people are free to make their own choices? The argument that if a person can be free to choose murder their child they are (or should be) equally as free to educate their children in the way they like.? Isn’t that also a personal choice? That all our rights are individual rights? The country is built on the premise of god given individual rights.
Just like we are free to choose who to marry, Where to live, the work we do, How we Worship or if at all. Self determination? You don’t agree with that?
I think people just don’t the idea of losing control. They hate the idea that people are escaping their beloved “system” They just don’t want people to have choice beyond what is chosen for them. They money follows the kid. It does now as a matter of fact. Schools get a base income from the state and an additional amount for each kid. Literally nothing will change really.
Anyway, If public schools are so good then people will come back and this program will die unused. Its just an option, not a mandate.
What are you afraid of? If it helps one child. It will be worth it.
How pious. How selfish, greedy, and absolutely moronic. You want money back from government? You need to write the school(s) you graduated from and get a refund. Clearly they failed you.
Make your own choices. Make them without the state funding them. You live in this state, you live in this country. You aren’t entitled to a refund just because you disagree with how the money is spent and for what. If you do, then you need to change your elected representatives in the respective bodies’ politic. But you don’t get money back on the basis of disagreement nor do you get a “voucher” to use as venture capital on a whim because you want Junior Ringlet indoctrinated in a way that suits you. It’s not how the system works, not how it was designed to work. Not how it’s supposed to work. Even in your mind, dreams, or nightmares.
There is no argument. Murdering a child is still…murder. The taking of a life in a cold state of blood. NCGS 14-17 if you have the means of looking it up and reading it. Despite what you call it, want to believe it is, or try to define it as, abortion as the term is legally defined, isn’t. But lets suppose for a moment. At conception, you posit that embryo is a “child.” A viable human being. A miniature people. Why aren’t they assigned social security numbers then? Their own unit serial number in recognition of conception. Why don’t we change the certificate program as such too. Rather than “record of live birth” to “certificate of conception.” You want to make it murder, well then, why not give them some sort of legal standing to that end then. Hold your breath waiting on that to happen.
You want to argue freedom of choice and freedom of this and that…until we get to reproductive rights. Then you want to slam the door and lock it. You sir are a closet Republican. You want things the way you want them and think they should be. You know better than everyone else. Arrogance with the ability to make the laws to impose your will.
If you gave a damn about children, you should be waving a flag about abuse. Based on what I saw and read this morning, you should be leading the charge on shuttering the Roman Catholic Church. But no. The sanctity of the “child” is only sacred in the womb in your Utopia. But you know what? That statement isn’t fair to the millions of faithful Catholics that don’t abuse children and are wholesome decent people. But they need to do some serious housecleaning.
You want to argue social issues you can’t seem to get off abortion just like you accused everyone else here of being obsessed with fat Donny.
People have the right to choose. I’ve made it clear. In the case of abortion I’ve said before just call it what it is. Murder. Simple. Personally I don’t care what they choose to do, As I’ve said elsewhere its between them and God ( or whomever they worship if any, or if nothing at least themselves.) I’ve explained clearly elsewhere what defines life. The lag in paperwork means nothing to the simple scientific rules that define life. Its elementary and well known. I’ve also pointed out that I am aware of the difference between what Science defines as life and what the legal or political system does. I want Safe Legal and rare. And I want rare to be just that. Rare. I its good enough for Clinton its good enough for me.
I’ve also said I’m not pushing my choices on anyone. I’d prefer a complete ban except certain situations Which are already covered by law. No matter what people will ALWAYS have free will and will make a choice. No matter what the law. There will always be abortion in this country and this state it is never going away.
I’d prefer people be responsible and careful in their actions and not be faced with these awful choices.
As for schooling. The scholarships are meant for people who are not able to fully take advantage of our public school system for whatever reason. I would expect many of these families can’t afford to pay taxes for public schools AND tuition and since they can’t use the schools they should be able to seek accommodation wherever they can. . Therefore they essentially are paying twice for education. So what would you do? let these children flounder unable to learn and flourish in a normal public school? (which are quite regimented) Sometimes a regular public school situation is not the environment a child can learn in. The purpose of the tax dollars taken is for education. What form it comes in I don’t care.
I look at education as educating people. I’m not concerned in what form the education comes. If this program can help a family get their child to a place where the child can flourish and learn I’ve no issue having tax money go to it. Regardless of income. If the system is not working for them then we should help them find a way. Its the compassionate thing to do. I really don’t know what else to say.
I’ve no concerns about the school system. Its going nowhere, and will always be there. I care about educating people in a way that is best for them.
Again if it helps one child it is worth it.
As to what you’ve read this morning…Please post a link I am not aware of what you are talking about. I don’t keep tabs on the Catholic Church
Your links:
https://religionnews.com/2023/05/26/catholic-church-in-california-grapples-with-more-than-3000-lawsuits-alleging-child-sex-abuse/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2023/05/23/nearly-2000-children-sexually-abused-by-catholic-leaders-in-illinois/70247971007/
https://www.vox.com/2023/4/6/23672902/maryland-catholic-church-child-sex-abuse
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-44209971
Sufficient?
I see… The catholic church… hmmm. looks like they need to vet their priests better.
Well I’m sure that will be taken care of through our legal system. After all that is what it is for.
I would expect that you being all pious yourself about “bodily autonomy” except for the (child’s body of course) wouldn’t see anything wrong with what has gone on in the catholic church. I mean why care nothing about one child (as in abortion) and then turn around and care about another child (as in child molestation). They are not both children? You can’t treat them both as equally precious and worthy of protection? One counts and the other doesn’t.
Selective morality is a weird beast isn’t it?
Good luck, you are going to need it.
TC, well-reasoned and factual. I find it difficult to conceive of the notion that there are folks who believe their entitlement to government services has any relationship to the taxes paid. If that were the case, they call the fire dept to put out a kitchen grease fire, the government should deduct one thousand dollars, call a police officer to deal with loud music from their neighbor, deduct another five hundred dollars. Their account is down 1500 dollars, they have about a grand left. Hopefully, any further calls for services do not exceed $1000. Of course, this reasoning is conceited and overconfident of knowledge but poorly informed and immature. In other words, a sophomoric perspective! There is a ton of why things exist and how they work missing here. Of course, a good troll would say that is not what was met which makes me believe this is a high school kid with a word processing program, playing in an adult environment. Not a mere disagreement as to opinion.
Actually its not a bad idea! Any overage and the city/county or state can send a bill, or simply deduct it from whatever tax refund you get (If a person is dumb enough to get one that is)
Are you sure you are a democrat? That idea sounds absolutely libertarian!
who knows there may be hope for you yet!
Cooper is concerned because Democracy is happening to his government. Can’t have that can we?
Parental control! Oh No! People in CONTROL of their CHILDREN’S education! Unaccountable schools! ( except to those who pay the tuition! And they are accountable to the state. The pearl clutching is absurd.
Save the public schools! (that serve no one well except the teachers “union” that isn’t a “union” wink wink….) and Cooper himself had so much faith in his precious schools that he sent his kids to private schools. ( As do ALL democrat elites)
But I’m sure you guys will hand wave that away.
Typical hypocrite.