Make rich people pay for vouchers

by | May 24, 2023 | Editor's Blog | 51 comments

Republicans who support the voucher scheme that will drain public schools of resources keep pushing the narrative that Democrats don’t want poor kids to attend private schools with their kids. They point out that Roy Cooper sent his own daughter to private high school, but Cooper never asked the taxpayers to pick up the tab. They also don’t want to acknowledge that his other daughters went K-12 in public schools. He certainly didn’t ask rich people for a handout and that’s what Republicans are doing. 

The GOP bill will give people who already have enough money to send their children to private schools even more money. The bill says that families making $250,000 a year “would get 45% of the average amount given per child in public schools.” That’s more than $3,000 per year. It’s also more than the federal child tax credit. 

Let’s be clear. Despite all their free-market BS about competition improving public schools, vouchers are about political payoffs, not improving education. Today’s Republicans don’t really believe in public education. They’ve been starving it for years. They deride public schools as “government schools” and they believe teachers are overpaid and underworked. They want to shift public money into schools that share their ideologically narrow view, no matter the quality of education.

The largest recipients of voucher money are religious schools. The voucher scheme is a payoff to the GOP base to make sure that their kids don’t have to learn unpleasant scientific realities. They can teach creationism and have it subsidized by taxpayers. And everybody laughed when a couple of dimwitted GOP legislators proposed a state religion back in 2013.

Republicans claim that they are trying to improve public schools and give poor kids a chance for a better education. Research shows that vouchers provide neither of those outcomes. As the Brookings Institute noted, “on average, students that use vouchers to attend private schools do less well on tests than similar students that do not attend private schools.” In fact, they often don’t even provide the opportunity that they promise. At many top private schools, the cost of is still out of reach for poor families even with a voucher subsidy. As one researcher notes, “elite private schools with strong academics and large endowments often decline to participate in voucher plans.”

So back to that claim that Democrats don’t want their children to go to school with poor kids. Democrats have never said they oppose private education, but I doubt many Democrats are attending schools that are the recipients of voucher funds. Democrats are pro-public education regardless of where they send their children. They believe that our public schools are underfunded and that a decade of tax cuts for the wealthy and big corporations has left our schools struggling. We’ve fallen to 49th in teacher pay and 42nd in pupil spending, so they have a pretty strong point. They believe in fully funding education, not shifting public funds to private schools. Roy Cooper was content to pay for both his daughter’s private school tuition and his taxes to pay for public schools. In contrast, Republicans want to further cut funding for public schools and further shift money from public education to rich people.

If Republicans want to subsidize their base and rich people to send their kids to private schools, they should present it as separate budget item and ask the people who have benefited from their tax policy to pay for it. They shouldn’t penalize public schools and the children who attend them.

51 Comments

  1. cocodog

    There is another aspect to this issue of funding real public schools. It works like this; Little Johnnies parents enroll him in one of the local charter schools. The money which would have gone to the real public school where Little Johnny lives is diverted to the charter. Charters, unlike real public schools, are not required by law to provide Little Johnny with an education. If he cannot cut the mustard academically, or constitutes a behavior problem, gets sick and cannot complete the academic year, the charter can kick little Johnny out. The State does not require the charter to return the unused portion of money. they keep it. There are a few exceptions, which require the charter to pay those unused funds back to the state. But these exceptions are few. If, however, the charter is forced to pay the money back to the state, that money does not go back to the real public school. It goes into the state’s education budget. The local public school is required to pick up where the charter dumped Little Johnny, but without the funds as they went back to the state education fund. The real public school is now burdened with the expense of educating little Johnny. Real Public schools have set up their class size, transportation costs and food needs based on the funds determined at the beginning of the year. Little Johnny and others like him in similar circumstances show up at the public school’s door and demand a state mandated education. This means the public school must add these students to existing classes. The result is overcrowding and additional burdens to teachers and support staff. Public schools cannot hire more teachers as their budget is determined at the first of the year and will not permit it. So, they do the best that they can. Some students in need of individualized attention will not get it.
    Cooper declared a public-school emergency because of these issues. He clearly perceives how Republicans are playing fast and lose with your tax money to enrich private interests and destroy NC long standing traditional public educational system. I have tried to keep this as simple as possible. There is no double talk. Either this state has a healthy thriving public educational system, or it does not. The bottom line is obvious, little Johnny may or may not learn to read, do simple math, find a good job or go on to college because he lacks the education. Democrats are not responsible for this!

      • cocodog

        Ringlet, citing the NC statutes creating the private school authority doses do not address the issue at hand.
        I will give you guidance, Issue: whether a private school is required to return the unused funds if the child is booted out for any reason?
        Answering this will take thought. A simple Yes or No answer is not acceptable. Cite statutes! We are waiting to see if you can manage it. Otherwise, do not waste our time.

        • ringlet86

          I just posting raw info for others edification. It was not meant to answer that particular question per se.

          personally I don’t care what happens to the money. If its in private hands it is in good hands as far as I am concerned.

          I will try to finds an answer because I’m curious. There are a lot of rules covering that for college though have not found for K-12 yet.

          But common sense (and a lack rancor and leftist squealing) would imply that the money is moved as needed or the child stays there for a term and moves on afterward. Its too huge a gap for the left not to be crying about it all the time. But who know we’ll see.

          I did find it interesting to note that a child has to have been a student on NC schools FIRST before they can apply for this program.

      • ringlet86

        Excerpt form the above link noting what happens to the money if a student transfers.

        .0307. Transfers.
        (a) A student who transfers from one Eligible School to another Eligible School during the Academic
        Year may be entitled to a pro-rata share of any unexpended portion of a Scholarship, in
        accordance with the policies of the Authority, to be used at the Eligible School to which the
        student transfers, depending upon when during the Semester the student transfers.
        (b) A student will not be eligible for a pro-rata share of any unexpended portion of a Scholarship, in
        accordance with the policies of the Authority, if the student transfers more than one time during
        the Semester

        pretty much follows what the do for college scholarships as well.

    • ringlet86

      https://www.ncseaa.edu/k12/opportunity/opportunity-srd/ Show relevant statues that control the program

      https://www.wral.com/story/private-school-vouchers-in-nc-who-uses-them-and-which-schools-get-the-most/20849262/

      Quotes from the article
      “…Users of vouchers in North Carolina and beyond are typically lower-income families,…”

      “…“It tends to be disadvantaged families primarily that participate in programs like this, where they’re struggling in their existing school and they’re looking for another option,” Egalite said….”
      and

      …How successful North Carolina’s voucher recipients are is difficult to study. The private schools here don’t take the same tests as North Carolina’s public schools.

      “…But Egalite and colleagues found some positive outcomes when private school students were given a new test that could be compared with public school students.,,,”

      In the article there is a graph showing the increase year over year in people using this program. Its parent driven and I would guess its a good thing that the state is following what its people want. A growing amount if voters do not want to use public schools.

      I just prefer choices over no choices, and a person centered education, instead of “system centered” education. Apparently a growing number of North Carolinian’s do as well.

      I’m glad the legislature is listening to the people and making it available for more people.

  2. cocodog

    Knowing how to investigate a subject is a key element in understanding of this Republican voucher system. A few guidelines for research: vouchers are issued to the private school for the entire school year. It is not paid on a month-to-month basis like a car payment. Nor is the money given to the family. The state takes that money out of a public school budget at the beginning of the year. The parent gives the voucher to the school. The school presents the voucher to the state. The state sends a check directly to the private school for the entire school year.
    If little Johnny is unable to complete the school year, that money is not refunded. But the real public schools are obligated to educate little Johnny. So Little Johnny enrolls in the local public school and completes his education at the expense of the district where that school is located.
    The district has not received any funds to educate little Johnny as that money was taken out of its budget at the beginning of the school year.
    The result, administrators, teachers, and school support staff do not receive pay raises or increased benefits. The number of kids per classroom goes up. Little Sam, who registered for public school from the beginning of the year is deprived of attention due to increased class size.
    This is why trained and experienced teachers are leaving the profession for other lines of employment or going to other states that value and pay for their skills. What remains will be private school teachers and administrators who are not required to meet the educational standard of a public school and are paid less. Nor provide the quality education Little Johnny and Sam will need to pass college entrance exams. The winner is the private school operator who can take his family to Disneyland with the funds your tax money paid him!

    • ringlet86

      Can you show me the evidence of this?

      • cocodog

        Ringlet, if you wish to mail Mills a very large donation to run this website. I will take the time to break down the current and pending legislation. Otherwise, do your best with the tools you may have at hand (LOL) to do your own research. But I want to see chapter and verse, non of this nonsense you deem something to be wrong and demand somebody prove it.

        • cocodog

          Oh by the way, the correct word is not evidence, that relates something different. Points and authorities would be more appropriate.

      • ringlet86

        Well I’m sure this sort of thing is possible, but you were so certain I figured you could easily prove it, or had seen it with your own eyes etc or you saw a news article etc. This would be a huge gaping hole in the program. The State is stupid, but it can’t be THAT stupid. Surely somewhere a goof like this would be seen and the news or the teachers union or someone would have mentioned it and run with it. It obvious they see school choice as a major threat to their future, an existential threat at that.

        Its obvious that the democrats HATE (and that word is accurate) The mere idea of school choice, They absolutely ABHOR the actual program and it administration. Outside of Academia (the holy temple) and Abortion (The holy sacrament) Public Schools rank right up there in their importance to the left. They are training ground where children are introduced and trained from the earliest days in the ways of the state and what it wants.

        There is no way the money for this could be handled this way without them screaming bloody murder, and it not be reported all over, investigated etc. It would be a gift for them.

        I was hoping it was not the case, but I’m going to have to mark it down to a conspiracy theory I guess.

        I’ll do some digging and see what I can find, but call me a skeptic.

        • cocodog

          Ringlet you are ten pounds in a five-pound bag. Either you have the fortitude to put your money where your mouth is or you are, as I suspected a teenager playing in an adult area. I do not see any reason for me to prove anything to you. You have no academic credentials worthy of such effort. You are way out of your league. I am sure you would be happier on Tic toc or face book among your fellow light weights

          • ringlet86

            lol. More name calling. I guess I’ve called your bluff, and I didn’t even mean to.

          • cocodog

            lol. More name calling. I guess I’ve called your bluff, and I didn’t even mean to.: Sure you did !

  3. cocodog

    The Republican school voucher program is another fraud designed to weaken the real public schools in this state.
    Republicans want that money to follow the kid, so if the kid enrolls in a private school and hangs around for ten days that money will continue to be paid into the pockets of a private school operator. If after ten days, the private school operator decides little Johnny fails to come up to the academic standards or is a disciplinary problem, they boot him out. He returns to the real public school system while the money continues to flow into the pocket of the private school operator.
    So, the real public schools do the job for free while the private school operator gets the money.
    In the overall scheme of things that money has been deducted from the real public-school budget can reduce the operating funds of a district by as much as a million dollars for each school year. Of course, if little Johnny does not return to a private school in the next school year the money comes back. What a great scheme to divert tax funds to a private operation and weaken the real public schools in this state. And at the same time, save the fat cat money. A Republican WIN WIN scheme

    • ringlet86

      Wow, how do you know this? I could see that happening, but wouldn’t the parent who gets the money tell the state that the child is not going there? I presume the parents would need the funds for a different school? And if the child re enrolls back into a public school wouldn’t the state know that? And if money were sent to the wrong place I’m sure that state would ask for it back.

      Does this occur? Really on purpose? I could see a lag in payments but what you describe is illegal. I’m pretty sure the accounting guys in the state are going to know, and have an issue with it.

      It sounds like fraud to me. I could see people trying, but I don’t see them getting away with it. Its too visible and traceable. I see jail time if they get caught essentially embezzling.

      This program has been in operation for ten years. I didn’t know that. I knew it was talked about, but I didn’t know it was implemented. I figured we would have heard about something like what you describe occurring from the roof tops!

      Again, The program has been running for ten years seamlessly and without issue, so all this furor seems to be much to to about nothing.

  4. Fred Blurt

    As a former North Carolinian, I think the original commentary was superb. The comments that were initially posted were reasoned and informative. But then the thread devolved into some of the usual whiny ass bitches (aka WAB as opposed to WAP) staking out turf. I’d like to see a moderator on the comments section doing at least some filtering of redundancy and outright propaganda, whether from citizens of the right or of the left. It was an exhausting series of posts.

  5. Wray

    Excellent commentary Thomas. The price you (and we) have to pay is the playground it provides for this silly ringlet86. It’s tiring to try to read him, but it does provide some light amusement at the end of the day.

  6. cocodog

    I have seen different figures as to NC teacher salary rankings, 49 and 42 seem to be the two most cited. Regardless, these figures are too low. Several of my teacher friends relate stories of having to buy supplies for their students as the district cannot afford them. In some cases, buying their students coats and snacks from the cafeteria. All public schools (when I use the terms public school, I do not have reference to the charter school which Republicans deemed as a public school by legislation, but they are not) maintain the low and reduced cost meals program which in some cases is the only food that a child receives. Moreover, public schools provide safe and reliable transportation for the child to and from the school. Yet Republicans want to pull funds from the public-school budgets to float this voucher system. A system that is devoid of transparency and favors the wealthy. This proves Republicans are out of touch with the educational system in this state. They need to be replaced with lawmakers who understand the value of the traditional public school and use the people’s tax money to best service the general well-being of the state.

  7. ringlet86

    I’ve been thinking about the whole “unaccountable” thing. And I have to say its a red herring. Its been proven clearly that elected school boards are accountable to no one, and they don’t fear their electorate at all, and they have no care or appreciation as to where their money comes from. I think its because the money has no face its just “tax money”

    Verses this scenario. Mr. smith just paid 7K for tuition this term They know EXACTLY who is paying the bills. The know him by his face, and they know his children. and he knows them and can talk to them directly anytime. The accountability is direct.

    No school board is really accountable, They certainly don’t act like they are accountable or that parents concerns are even valid (after all they are the experts) nor do they really care or even have the ability to do anything anyway, I guess they can make a phone call or write an email) Its an illusion of accountability. Anyway an election does not give some special status of virtue.

    But being a paid employee certainly marks the relationship. There is no doubt who pays the bills and they are in charge.

    More local, smaller, and more in person is always better. In schools, you barber/hairdresser/ mechanic, doctor, farmer, butcher, baker candlestick maker!

    Just a thought.

  8. Joy Hewett

    I’ve been calling NC republicans and saying: Please improve our public schools instead of giving away our taxpayers’ hard earned dollars for private school vouchers. We need a well-funded public school system where every child in North Carolina is given the opportunity to learn with well paid teachers. Founding father Thomas Jefferson believed a well educated public was needed to sustain democracy. Only a well educated citizenry could make self government succeed. He proposed a system of broad, free, public education for men and women alike. Don’t you think our democracy is important enough to provide that right by protecting our public school system? Weakening our public schools and promoting unaccountable private schools is a dangerous idea.
    I received a wonderful public school education and taught in community colleges for 34 years. A good public school education should be available for future generations.
    Every child in NC deserves to learn to read, have a good vocabulary to think and articulate ideas. Our society needs well adjusted educated young people who can live up to their potential through the system Thomas Jefferson proposed for America. Please don’t waste our tax dollars on vouchers for people with money to pay for private schools– an amount that would gradually increase to well above $500 million by 2032.
    Call or email your legislature!–easy to find at gen assembly gov website.

    • ringlet86

      “…We need a well-funded public school system where every child in North Carolina is given the opportunity to learn with well paid teachers…” Every child is given the opportunity, but the system does not work for every child so they cannot take advantage of the opportunity. This will change that and give them a chance. Right now they have NONE. Define “well paid and Well funded. The only number I’ve ever seen is “more.”

      …”Founding father Thomas Jefferson believed a well educated public was needed to sustain democracy….” Wait a minute! I thought you guys hated that white patriarchal, oppressive, colonialist, slave owner. Now you like him? Its getting hard to keep up!

      …”Only a well educated citizenry could make self government succeed…” You forget the Democrats want a chattel class that they can rule over, and make all the choices for, or at least give the illusion of choice by limiting the options. Public education is to make factory workers and servant for them. They don’t want anyone to have an opportunity that they deign opportriate fo

      …” He proposed a system of broad, free, public education for men and women alike…” Which we have, and is going nowhere.

      “…Don’t you think our democracy is important enough to provide that right by protecting our public school system?..” No. I think there are many way to achieve the goal, and the system is but one of the ways. The goal is to educate PEOPLE not preserve a system. It does not work for everyone.

      “…Weakening our public schools and promoting unaccountable private schools is a dangerous idea….” In your opinion. Private schools are of course accountable to the parents that pay the tuition, and to the state that makes standards. And the plea of “weakening public schools is a canard, there is no evidence of that.

      “… Please don’t waste our tax dollars on vouchers for people with money to pay for private schools…”more class envy That really is what bugs you guys isn’t it? Its not all the other stuff you regurgitate…Its envy, class envy that drives you guys. Pathetic. If it helps one child its worth it.

      …an amount that would gradually increase to well above $500 million by 2032….” Which would have been spent anyway on education. and the idea that Democrats worry about money! Is this comedy? Its like Cats and Dogs sleeping together! Laughable, Again, if it helps only ONE child its worth it. Democrats used to say that all the time, I guess they didn’t mean it.

      Pearl clutching, fear mongering, and class envy…Its like ….always!

      • Peter Harkins

        Ringlet,

        My gracious, that’s quite an extended oration today! Clear you’re quite concerned with the current state of “education” in NC. Or just pickin’ at Thomas? 🙂

        In trying to understand your perspective, would you mind sharing your background with education? I ‘spect it’s quite extensive as a student, but perhaps you’ve not had an opportunity to actually serve as a practicing educator in the public school system?

        Oh, and in your first set of comments, regarding ” … well democrats are racists so, If the shoe fits…”, I bet you meant big D and that was just a slip of the shift key.

        If you’ve lived in the State since as early as Ike’s first term (or earlier), you might recall a fellow named Jesse Helms and his nightly editorials on WRAL (old fashioned, no holds barred racist). When Jesse switched to the Republican Party, ran for US Senate and won in ’72, the NC Republican Party began its growth to what it is today, largely from folks like my eastern NC relatives (all multi-generation Democrats then) who were racist in their own right and simply followed Jesse to the Right. Many of the newly minted Republicans’ children, and perhaps one of two of those original switchers (not any personal relatives though) serve in the super-majority in our Legislature today.

        Post war (that’s the Civil) through the early ’70s, the NC Republican Party was small, centered pretty much in western NC, and remained fiscally conservative, socially moderate, and generally proud of it’s Lincoln history. Perhaps apocryphal, bit it’s rumored the Confederacy quartered troops in a coupl’a NC mountain counties during the War ’cause they refused to join the rest of the state in leaving the Union.

        49th in teacher pay, 42nd in student spending … if it’s true that “you get what you pay for”, perhaps we should double the pay of our legislators? 🙂

        Uncle Grumpy

        • cocodog

          What does it take to cut and paste another commentators’ words and stating he disagrees or asking for citations? It is not saying much for Ringlets intellectual abilities. But does say a lot about his trolling techniques. Techniques that are not something new or unique to the internet. Just another Troll attempting to play games.

          • ringlet86

            I’ve been waiting for you in particular to say this. Why do I parse? Its because all the posts here are full of good points that I’d like to comment on. That’s it. That is the only reason. And some of those statements may a little outlandish and stated as absolute fact I’d like to see the where the person learned it. I ask for a cite for my own edification mostly. No big deal.

            And calling me a troll, Its so weak. Do you know what that really is? Do you know what a troll would do really? Its not me.
            What I am doing is commenting and discussing and raising my points and opinions Just like you do.

            Your problem is you don’t like it. So you literally want to cut off the conversion or discussion and walk away.

  9. ringlet86

    “…but Cooper never asked the taxpayers to pick up the tab….” He didn’t have to. e We paid his salary so he could afford it. That why I think people on the public dole Should use ONLY public schools. I bet the quality would go way up if elites like Cooper were required to use them for their children. But they would probably just make special schools for themselves.

    …”He certainly didn’t ask rich people for a handout and that’s what Republicans are doing…” Jealous I guess The Democrats don’t like competition in asking for money.

    “The GOP bill will give people who already have enough money to send their children to private schools even more money. The bill says that families making $250,000 a year “would get 45% of the average amount given per child in public schools.” That’s more than $3,000 per year. It’s also more than the federal child tax credit.” So. Who are you to determine “they already have enough money” Such arrogance. Who do you think you are?

    …”Despite all their free-market BS about competition improving public schools, vouchers are about political payoffs, not improving education….” As opposed to the payoff to the teachers union that not a union in NC? Give it up people see right through it, you aren’t fooling anyone.

    “…Today’s Republicans don’t really believe in public education..” In your opinion

    “…They’ve been starving it for years….” In Your opinion past budgets would say otherwise.
    “…They deride public schools as “government schools”… Well they are run by the local governement I’m sorry if you hate accuracy.
    “…and they believe teachers are overpaid and underworked…” well they do have more help and more days off than anytime I can remember, and the curriculum hasn’t changed all that much so…?
    “…They want to shift public money into schools that share their ideologically narrow view no matter the quality of education….”
    In your opinion.
    “…The largest recipients of voucher money are religious schools….” So people choose them. What is the problem?
    “…The voucher scheme is a payoff to the GOP base to make sure that their kids don’t have to learn unpleasant scientific realities…” “…They can teach creationism and have it subsidized by taxpayers….” So?
    “…Republicans claim that they are trying to improve public schools and give poor kids a chance for a better education. Research shows that vouchers provide neither of those outcomes…” And I am sure there is research that does show it helps.

    … Brookings lol,,, As one researcher notes, “elite private schools with strong academics and large endowments often decline to participate in voucher plans.” I’m sure St Mary’s will line right up… Who care its a choice. they can choose to participate or not.

    …”So back to that claim that Democrats don’t want their children to go to school with poor kids….” well democrats are racists so,, If the shoe fits… Just sayin…
    …” Democrats have never said they oppose private education…” Is that even a question in this debate?
    …”but I doubt many Democrats are attending schools that are the recipients of voucher funds…” Speculation on your part, you’ve no idea.
    …”Roy Cooper was content to pay for both his daughter’s private school tuition and his taxes to pay for public schools…” Not sure about that I mean 60 grand is alot of money for a mere civil servant to cover. I suspect it was a gidft or payoff for something, not that anyone will look into it but….Well its a lot of money for High School…Seems a bit off. Regardless taxpayers funded all of it since we paid his way.
    …”In contrast, Republicans want to further cut funding for public schools and further shift money from public education to rich people….” when all else fails go to class envy. It gets em every time!

    …If Republicans want to subsidize their base and rich people to send their kids to private schools, they should present it as separate budget item and ask the people who have benefited from their tax policy to pay for it. They shouldn’t penalize public schools and the children who attend them….” I assume this is satire.

    Pearl clutching level is 100 plus!

  10. cocodog

    The Republican voucher system is shortchanging the public schools. This is a phenomenon that came into being with Republicans gaining a majority in the legislature. The first to go was Teacher Tenure, then after retirement health care and eventually, mediocre raises. Not the best way to attract talent.
    Understanding what a prospective public-school teacher must go through to be licensed in NC may illustrate why these private operations are not competitive. A real public-school teacher has a four-year degree or better from an accredited college or university, completes a series of tests, called the Praxis® which are designed to measure the knowledge and skills needed to prepare for the classroom. The charters do not require the same standards for all their teachers or administrators. Moreover, “non-public school” (AKA: Private School) establishes its own qualifications for its faculty and administrative staff. Not exactly a formula for student success. The NC Constitution requires the state to set standards, Republicans have side stepped this requirement and now want taxpayer money to encourage the development of private schools with funds that could be used to assist the public schools. Maybe, Republicans see an advantage to little Johnny growing up being able to cite chapter and verse from the Bible but lacking the skill to do simple math or pass college entrance exams.

    • cocodog

      Private schools designed to isolate a child from the realities of the world do not serve the public interest. A child must interact with other kids from different social economic back grounds, religions, races, and languages to gain an understanding of the real world. This is part of growing up.
      The fact Gov. Cooper paid to send his daughters to a private high school is not really anybody’s business. It may be for security reasons. Reasonable in today’s world where Republicans are doing their best to provide opportunities for nut cases to do harm. For Republicans who used to promote individual rights and privacy attacking where Cooper chose to educate his kids is disingenuous. For the same reason if he chooses to send them to a private college not anybody’s business.
      Each day, we are seeing Republicans trying to invade folks’ private lives dictate what they should believe, where they go to school and what healthcare a woman chooses.
      It will not surprise me one day Republicans adopt a state religion and force folks to attend that church. Of course, that would clearly violate the non-establishment clause and cross that constitutional freedom of religion line.
      Another interesting aspect of this private school business is Republicans desire not to hold private schools accountable as to how they use the voucher money. Governmental agencies that accept Federal Funds directly or indirectly are held to an elevated level of transparency. Why do republicans not hold these charter schools and others that accept State Funds to a reasonable degree of transparency?

      • TC

        I completely agree here with Thomas and your commentary Coco; both parts…and on something else.

        Your recent commentary on internet trolls…I think you’ve hit the nail squarely on the head. The rabbit hole runneth over.

        • ringlet86

          Or it could be a simple difference in opinion.

          • TC

            Is it? You want to plead difference of opinion now?

          • ringlet86

            I am not pleading anything. Its obvious we have a difference of opinion.

          • TC

            Blatantly obvious. You have opinions; bully for you.

            We do have differences and people are entitled to their own opinions; me, you, everyone else. It’s when you state your opinions as fact that I take umbrage. Someone says something which you instantly copy, paste, and challenge with your own cutesy quip calling for facts and cites. When did an opinion rise to the level of fact or factual? Of course, your retort is lacking those same attributes. That fact doesn’t seem to dissuade you at all from your air of resolute righteousness by telling the poster they are wrong, uninformed, or are misleading. All according to you without those same attributes you call for and say you are seeking.

            You want to split hairs and details. Quite a few who post here have the ability to research and write in great detail; it’s obvious in the construct of what they say and how. The problem is, there isn’t room. Even Thomas, if he were to try to do a detailed article and analysis, would run into a depth of detail and size that would turn readers off and while well researched and written, remain unread for the most part because of it. It would read like a research piece in JAMA. Articles emphasize highlights, trends, and political machinations, including a few sources, quotes, and citations. To inform and encourage debate and exchange.

            And yes, they are written from a certain point of view. One I happen to share in general terms. One I don’t always agree with on the minutia. But one I’m on board with more often than not.

            My opinion.

      • ringlet86

        “…Private schools designed to isolate a child from the realities of the world do not serve the public interest. A child must interact with other kids from different social economic back grounds, religions, races, and languages to gain an understanding of the real world. This is part of growing up….” I doubt they are DESIGNED that way, but at any rate people are FREE to CHOOSE who they want to associate with. Its not a choice I’ve ever made, by “to each his own”, as they say

        “…The fact Gov. Cooper paid to send his daughters to a private high school is not really anybody’s business…” If he weren’t in pubic life and advocating so that others cannot make the choice he did. Sure, But he is, and he is not. So he will be crucified in the court of public opinion his hypocrisy. He is a big boy, I’m sure he does not care a whit.
        “…It may be for security reasons….” True
        “…Reasonable in today’s world where Republicans are doing their best to provide opportunities for nut cases to do harm…” have you seen the news lately. Congressmen prepping for “war in the streets” if federal spending is cut…lol, and that just the latest. This bit is laughable really.

        “…Each day, we are seeing Republicans trying to invade folks’ private lives dictate what they should believe,…” What specifically? Cite please.
        “…where they go to school…” You mean where they can CHOOSE to go to school? Isn’t that a god thing?
        “… and what healthcare a woman chooses…” if you are alluding to abortion. All the “medical care reasons for an abortion are perfectly legal and spelled out as such in the law (if you’ve read it you would know this) . Otherwise Abortion is not healthcare. Unless murder of children is health care, which it isn’t.

        “It will not surprise me one day Republicans adopt a state religion…” Actually I’m not sure that would be illegal.

        “…and force folks to attend that church….” Now that would be illegal. “…Of course, that would clearly violate the non-establishment clause and cross that constitutional freedom of religion line…”of course the whole argument is hyperbole silliness. I mean just think of all the denominations, ….what a mess which one would they chose….lol.

        “…Another interesting aspect of this private school business is Republicans desire not to hold private schools accountable as to how they use the voucher money…” Cite please. I posit that they are accountable, as I’ve said many times. They just aren’t accountable to people YOU LIKE or seemingly can CONTROL.
        “…Governmental agencies that accept Federal Funds directly or indirectly are held to an elevated level of transparency…” Cite please,
        “…Why do republicans not hold these charter schools and others that accept State Funds to a reasonable degree of transparency?…” Cite please that they don’t.

        • Calcman

          Ringlet86, you obviously possess the requisite technology skills to access the internet and explore sources on your own. https://ncleg.gov/ is where you can find all bills under consideration and track their progress through the legislative process. I encourage you to take advantage of the site to improve your grasp of the topics, and therefore develop some factual basis for your opinions and responses to the posts on this and any other threads that you visit and comment on. Read the bills and you might discover that others posting on this thread base their comments on the actual language found in the proposed legislation. A little learning is a dangerous thing, and I encourage all to avoid that prospect by becoming a lifelong learner.

          • ringlet86

            Thanks for that.

            I do read the bills, probably a lot more than coco does. The reason I ask for a cite is I’m pretty sure in the bills or a policy etc…I’m not going to see things like this.

            “Each day, we are seeing Republicans trying to invade folks’ private lives dictate what they should believe…” That is a bold statement that must have SOME Proof otherwise our wise old all knowing sage wouldn’t be saying right? So show the goods!

            or
            “Why do republicans not hold these charter schools and others that accept State Funds to a reasonable degree of transparency?” Again Is there proof for this? Show it.

            Coco got it from somewhere, I’ve never seen anything anywhere I’ve read ( a since I’m not in the bag for any team I go everywhere) So I’d like to know where he got it. For my own edification. I’m not afraid to go down HIS rabbit hole!

            Much of what he says is hyperbole and ancient Old democrat talking points with no substance. But still Maybe he has a source for it so… I ask. Since he gets mad about it. I guess he is making it up. But I’d really like to know. Ya know life long learning! I mean he is so smart and all surely he would like to share?

            Anyway thanks for the tip. I’ll take it under advisement.

        • cocodog

          Ringlet, this cut a past technique you have adopted as a “trolling tool” is making you appear childish. And makes you appear conceited and overconfident, poorly informed, and sophomoric.

          “I doubt they are DESIGNED that way, but at any rate people are FREE to CHOOSE who they want to associate with. Its not a choice I’ve ever made, by “to each his own”, as they say”

          “ What specifically? Cite please.”
          “…where they go to school…” You mean where they can CHOOSE to go to school? Isn’t that a god thing?”

          “if you are alluding to abortion. All the “medical care reasons for an abortion are perfectly legal and spelled out as such in the law (if you’ve read it you would know this) . Otherwise Abortion is not healthcare. Unless murder of children is health care, which it isn’t.”

          “Cite please,”

          I can only guess the thrill you receive. Dose it arose you. Do you get excited? Do you have thoughts of how witty you appear? Do you view yourself as being too cute by 10?

          Folks have inquired as to your educational background. A question you ignored. Would I be correct in my assessment? You are a high school kid with a word processing program?

          • ringlet86

            “…Ringlet, this cut a past technique you have adopted as a “trolling tool” is making you appear childish. And makes you appear conceited and overconfident, poorly informed, and sophomoric….”

            I’m not using it as a “Trolling tool” I don’t even know what that would be.

            I use it so I can comment directly towards a precise point a poster has made. That is the reason I do it. That way we both know the exact point I’m commenting on. Some of this missives are quite long and they are packed with stuff.

            As for the overconfident, poorly informed, and sophomoric. The exact same could be said of you except I’d add haughty, arrogant, irritable and a curmudgeon.

            But hey I’m sure someone loves you for that! lol!

            I’ll take your view under advisement.

          • cocodog

            Just as I suspect, you are a high school kid with a word processing program trying to troll. Well kid you have been outed, folks are finding you amusing and not worthy of response. You are an internet joke.

          • ringlet86

            “You are an internet joke.”

            Well coco, since you’ve devolved (Once again, to name calling) I guess I get to as well. It wouldn’t be fair otherwise would it.

            Now as to being an internet joke (your words) All I can say is. It takes one to know one, Why is that? Because you are one.

            Really try and do better. I mean this is 3rd grade level stuff. I don’t call you silly names. I counter your hyperbole and silliness. And I do try to make salient points. You could try that, although its likely you would fail. But then again, you are merely a governemnt lawyer so I guess its to be expected. I mean if your were really any good you’d be in private practice!

            I suggest you take your Geritol, Senecot, and metamucil and go to your nappy time. You are tired and getting grumpy, We’ll wake you if we need some hyperbole and silliness interjected.

            Have a nice day. Really.

        • cocodog

          “Why do I parse? Its because all the posts here are full of good points that I’d like to comment on.”
          This is what you call a comment: “I doubt they are DESIGNED that way, but at any rate people are FREE to CHOOSE who they want to associate with. Its not a choice I’ve ever made, by “to each his own”, as they say”
          The governor sends his kids to private schools: Your “insightful” comment: “ But he is, and he is not. So he will be crucified in the court of public opinion his hypocrisy. He is a big boy, I’m sure he does not care a whit.”
          These are some of the examples of the gibberish you call commenting on others good points! On top of being a Troll, you are a liar. If you answered a question with that nonsense approach, you would be tossed out of any accredited institution of higher learning. Although, I doubt you could have made it past the entrance exams. Your comments are pure gibberish. Make no sense! Adults do not communicate in this manner.
          This brings me to a question I and others have posed. What college, trade school or sand box did you graduate from?

          • cocodog

            What is an internet troll? I quote from Vincent

            "Off-topic remarks: Completely going off-topic from the subject at hand. This is done to annoy and disrupt other posters".

            “Refusal to acknowledge evidence: Even when presented with hard, cold facts, they ignore this and pretend like they never saw it.”
            ” Dismissive, condescending tone: An early indicator of a troll was that they would ask an angry responder, “Why you mad, bro?” This is a method done to provoke someone even more, as a way of dismissing their argument altogether.”
            ” Use of unrelated images or memes: They reply to others with memes, images, and gifs. This is especially true if done in response to a very long text post.”
            ” Seeming obliviousness: They seem oblivious that most people are in disagreement with them. Also, trolls rarely get mad or provoked.”

            The cure for trolls is to ignore them. Act like they do not exist. So enjoy your self Ringlet.

          • ringlet86

            This is how I prefer to do it. It works for me. Sorry you don’t like it, but if I feel I need to do so. I will. As I said many of the comments are filled with statements and points I want to comment on. Its the best way to point it the section directly. I can’t help that the format of the site does not work well with it. I try my best to make it clear.

            As to my education. Its irrelevant. I could tell you what education I have or whatever I think you wanted to hear and you would not believe it, respect it or care. And appeals to authority arguments are weak. So I’m not going to get into the “my degree” blah blah blah… purse swinging

            I’ve got plenty enough education to understand, comprehend, and comment on anything I see here. These are not particularly rigorous topics.

            If I were to assume what education level is needed to comment here ( which I don’t and wouldn’t be so rude as to assume) I think an 8th grade education should cover it. Well maybe not PUBLIC SCHOOL 8th grade. LOL!

            The public school comment was a joke. just in case… Liberals are pretty humorless these days! ;0

            Have a nice day.

          • ringlet86

            What is an internet troll? I quote from Vincent

            “Off-topic remarks: Completely going off-topic from the subject at hand. This is done to annoy and disrupt other posters”.
            Refusal to acknowledge evidence: Even when presented with hard, cold facts, they ignore this and pretend like they never saw it.”
            ” Dismissive, condescending tone: An early indicator of a troll was that they would ask an angry responder, “Why you mad, bro?” This is a method done to provoke someone even more, as a way of dismissing their argument altogether.”
            ” Use of unrelated images or memes: They reply to others with memes, images, and gifs. This is especially true if done in response to a very long text post.”
            ” Seeming obliviousness: They seem oblivious that most people are in disagreement with them. Also, trolls rarely get mad or provoked.”

            All I can say I am not doing any of that. All my replies are on topic at hand, and for crying out loud I cite directly the “facts” I am calling into question. Come on!

            And really a lot of this is the pot calling the Kettle black.

            I mean be honest. No one here is more, Dismissive, and condescending then you!
            If you don’t want to respond to me don’t. You won’t hurt my feelings, really you won’t.

            As to disagreeing with me? So? Are we all supposed to agree on everything? All the time? I think you know the answer is no.

            I guess You don’t like what I have to say, You don’t want to hear it. So you want to take your ball and go home? I guess I’m invading your safe space and you can’t handle it?

            You do know I’m a democrat right? I’m just in the 30% that isn’t going to vote for Biden, at least not in the primary if needed anyway. I thought debate is needed? I thought diversity is our strength?

            Perhaps we can just agree you are wrong and I am right!

            Just kidding!

            Have a nice day.

          • cocodog

            All I can say I am not doing any of that. All my replies are on topic at hand, and for crying out loud I cite directly the “facts” I am calling into question. Come on!
            And really a lot of this is the pot calling the Kettle black.
            I mean be honest. No one here is more, Dismissive, and condescending then you!
            If you don’t want to respond to me don’t. You won’t hurt my feelings, really you won’t.
            As to disagreeing with me? So? Are we all supposed to agree on everything? All the time? I think you know the answer is no.
            I guess You don’t like what I have to say, You don’t want to hear it. So you want to take your ball and go home? I guess I’m invading your safe space and you can’t handle it?
            You do know I’m a democrat right? I’m just in the 30% that isn’t going to vote for Biden, at least not in the primary if needed anyway. I thought debate is needed? I thought diversity is our strength?
            Perhaps we can just agree you are wrong and I am right!
            Just kidding!
            Have a nice day.

            I was mistaken, you are not a high school kid with a word processor program, you are just an individual with a high school education and a word processor. Maybe, a lizard from outer space with a word processing program or some guy with a tin foil hat. Seriously, everything you posted is off the shelf gibberish. Frankly, who cares if you are a Democrat, agreement or disagreement nonsense, everybody is different is just nonsense or you are unable to read something and respond to it without a cut and paste job. The bottom-line Ringlet there is something wrong with the wiring in your head. You do lie, “I am a Democrat,” conflicts with your earlier statement “I am an Independent,” or your shallow understanding of the school voucher system. One thing is for sure, you are a source of amusement for folks. So, keep up the clever work, I am sure you are a legend in your own mind. You may give folks a good laugh, until the folks who run this site, 86 your tail.

          • ringlet86

            Well… What can I say? We certainly won’t get any entertainment from you!

            And what is it with you and lizards?

            And why do you sound so angry? Maybe its just the written word but it sure seems indignant.

            Democrat, republican. Meh… I agree and disagree with all of then. Depending on the issue. Do party labels really matter? I told you I was a demopublican, or a republicrat etc… etc, I said I don’t fit into any one place. Sorry you can’t wrap your head around that. I’m sorry I don’t fit into you predesignated thoughts of what certain groups are.

            I think you should take some internet time off, or have your medication checked.
            May increase the dosage on your ssri meds or something.

            Sheesh.

  11. Dan Mosca

    Rich people pay for vouchers!! D–mn, Right!!

    • ringlet86

      What else is new. Rich people pay for everything…..Until they don’t.

      • TC

        “Rich people do none of the work, pay none of the taxes. The middle class does all of the work, pays all of the taxes. The poor are there to scare the hell out of the middle class.” ~ George Carlin.

        • ringlet86

          That is pretty funny.

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